A question About high rank in Bujinkan

Hmm...

Huh?

What does the existence of chi-sui-ka-fu-ku have to do ANYTHING with a "conceptual model of reality." These elements are nearly universal across most histories in most countries; Japan was no different. I don't quite see the logic...

A "valid tool" for what? For talking about interactions, like "rock crushes scissors" or "scissors cut paper"? Yes. It's very helpful. For learning Hatsumi-sensei's art, it's a duct taped crutch that helps one hobble along for not very long. The only people that I've seen who have gotten anything out of the tool were those who tossed it aside quickly after visiting Japan.

Huh? Sounds like Scientology.... Seen a little too much of Tom Cruise on the telly, eh? :love:

And limited it was. So why learn a tool that has nothing to do with learning the art you are professing to follow? And moreover, why use a tool that won't get you very far? Why not just find a teacher who knows what s/he is talking about instead?

We're clearly not smoking the same weed....

Well, seeing how the thread was asking about Bujinkan ranks and NOT the reason why the elements are names used in the Sanshin no Kata, or the "myth of the elements," this is not the place to be pursuing these things. :bang:

Xenmaster, start up a thread where you can discuss the issue without hijacking someone else's inquiry.

If you are interested in why the names are used for the different levels of Judan, that, too, is a separate thread as well. :bang:

I'll post some comments about the ACTUAL REASON BEHIND THE THREAD separately.

-ben

 

The two things I've heard about 'chi-sui-ka-fuu-kuu' -

(1) They are the elemental manifestations from ancient Asian alchemy that correspond to the varying densities and modalities of all physical and non-physical phenomena - energies and behaviors and whatnot.

~ mostly from SKH books and Chinese medicine sources.

(2) It is a counting system, like "this is technique 'A' this is technique 'B'" etc.

So saying that something is 'such-and-such "ka"' is the same as saying it is number 3 out of a group of 5.

~ most people in the Bujinkan I know use it this way.

 

ben,

point 1: i haven't hijacked anything, the discussion turned to the subject of elemental names for judan grades and i asked for peoples opinions about that in relation to the use of elemental names elsewhere...your problem with that is what exactly?

point2: if you can't see how classifying experiential data into broad classes of action and response constitute a conceptual model of reality then that is not my problem.

point 3: i said oversimplified, not exhastive for a reason, if you want to interpret that as meaning paper, scissors, stone then thats fine...whatever helps you make your point. Re; using tools etc, in none of my posts above was i suggesting that the godai is something i follow or believe in religiously...as stated above i was just posting a genuine query about the use of godai-like terms and if that pointed to a historical basis for the godai within the art. Sorry, was that unreasonable??

point 4: i find your indignation about my thread-drift laughable in the extreme...you make no comment when people wander into the 'land of pants' for a page or so and you jump down my neck when i ask a few questions.

get over yourself ben and lighten up, otherwise there's no way on this earth i'd ever feel like sharing my weed with you

 

ok guy's
breathe in breathe out, its ok this is not that big a deal

 

Ranks

Good question, Korean Warrior.

It's important to consider the history of ranks in martial arts. While we tend to perceive that all arts have 8 dans or 10 dans, this is not universal. We must not forget as well, that one of the greatest reasons for the standardization that we all perceive was the introduction of Judo and Kendo into the school system in Japan at the turn of the century. Our assessments today reflect these influences over time.

I'm not too sure how Korean arts became standardized, but they did at some point in time, probably in a similar fashion. Standardization creates a sense of "legitimacy," which creates a cycle of legitimacy that feeds upon itself. Your question reflects this fact--somehow the rank of 125th dan doesn't seem "legitimate."

As Dale said, there really are no "eleventh" dans. Each dan is a level within the tenth dan (judan); the names "eleventh dan" and so on are just shortcuts for the lazy (like Dale ). While I don't know the exact date of the first "eleventh" dan, it was in the last eight to ten years or so. Up until that point, no one was good enough to be that level. Since then, we've had numerous people receive ranks higher than a pure tenth dan.

It is important to note, however, that the idea of these multiple levels of tenth dan was first mentioned by Soke as early as 1983! That means it took everyone almost 15 years to get to a level where Soke was actually willing to pass on such honors to people.

And honors they are....

Rank means many things in the Bujinkan. It signifies one's growth over time. It acts as a burden to keep improving.

But it also signifies Soke's trust in you as a person. After tenth dan, trust is a huge part of the ranking system, in my personal opinion. Certainly, one's budo plays a role, but it is also a sign of how close you are considered by Soke.

It's important to remember that the rank of Judan is only given if three other Judans write a recommendation to Soke. In fact, Soke has tied his own hands on this fact. He will not give a Judan to someone who cannot rally enough support from others to be judged worthy of Judan. (Granted, Soke made the call himself on the first Judan recipients, but since that point, he has relied on the best assessments of the other Judans in making these recommendations for the jump from ninth to tenth dan.)

In my assessment, these Judan+ ranks reflect Soke's personal assessment of the individual. Soke gives these ranks as "gifts"; I don't know anyone who has actually paid for one. But they signify something special in my opinion. They reflect Soke's personal assessment of you, someone whom other Judan have recommended as their peer at the highest levels of the art.

It's Soke's art, and if he wants to give someone a higher level of Judan than someone else because he sees something within that person that demands such an honor, then what harm is there? So long as people don't let their rank destroy their relationships with others, and so long as people continue to grow, everything will be okay.

Recall that Soke says that everyone is equal in the dojo. Soke loves it when a green belt dumps a black belt on his head. In a budo sense, "rank is meaningless." In a social structure, "rank has a place."

Hope that helps!

-ben

 

Thanks Dale. Very imformative.

 

Hmm

Not quite. Normski pointed out an egalitarian aspect of these ranks, saying "are not actually 11th, 12th Dans etc, in fact we are all Judans, only seperated by elements..."

*YOU* are the one who then brought in "SKH" baggage, and then started off on this drug-induced philosophizing about "conceptualising the way energy flows and transforms itself" and other such mumbo jumbo.

Huh? :bang:

MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD! Shocking idea, eh?

-ben

 

are you trying to be offensive or does this come naturally to you?

and just when does a consideration of energy changing form constitute mumbo jumbo? i thought it was basic physics

not quite sure why you're jumping on me and ordering me to do this and that...the real people in your world might respond positively to that attitude, but i certainly won't.

and just because someones view point doesn't fit with the comfortable little picture of reality and you have created around yourself doesn't make it 'drug-induced'

and while we're on the subject of thread drift...nailing me to the wall because i broadened the discussion? and then doing it again? with capital letters? perrleezze.

back on topic (after our MOD in waiting mr. cole has verified that my post is legitimately close enough to the inner desires of the original poster)...

do grades represent reality? why do some people seem content to stop grading at a certain point...but still continue to train?

and others rush through the grades and then stop training when they reach some arbitary level?

can a ninth dan perform dazzling displays of taijutsu, while a second dan is merely mediocre?

also, do people feel that the Bujinkan grading system represents consitency? If i train with a san-dan in mexico will i be receiving the same level of training as i would with a san-dan in canada?

i would imagine that the whole purpose of a rank-system is to provide an objective measure of the level of profficiency an individual is capable of demonstrating...but the impression i get is that this is not the case and that to even ask this question means i am missing some vital piece of knowledge about just what the grades are supposed to be for.

 

Way to jump on someone who just wants to learn a little more

 

In some arts, yes. In the Bujinkan, no. Hatsumi sensei grades people subjectively. For that matter, so do I.

Yes, I'd say you are.

Quoting again from the same FAQ section of my site:

 

I have to agree with Ninja Rina...perhaps if someone came in and said "In my style of unknown Ninja Kan, we stop at Nidan...which takes 30 years to attain. To have over 10 degrees of black is a fraud and a disgrace".

However, I don't believe anyone said that.

As for the attack on Xenmaster...well, if anyone wasn't a MOD but deserved to be one, it would be him. He has shown, over the last six months or so at least, to be a very level headed, calm, logical poster. He isn't another little scorpion, or a Son of Trulkor...so why the hate? Let him have an opinion that differs from yours, and let it go! No reason to beat up a quality poster!

May you achieve
Satori

 

Hmm...

Please tell me what "basic physics" has to do with the ORIGINAL INQUIRY THAT EVERYONE (but *YOU*) was answering: "I was wondering why so high ranks. Couldn't more things be tought at each rank. I am not in anyway trying to bash the art. I am just trying to understand what s going on there."

Basic physics, elemental conceptualizations, and the validity of SKH's teachings have NOTHING to do with this thread. If you'd like to make those ideas their own thread, then by all means, please do so.

When people were answering the ACTUAL question and explaining things, YOU were the one who decided to start philosophizing and bringing up a whole bunch of JUNK that totally distracted from a straightforward answer. That's the problem I have with your post....

It wasn't just "just throwing a spanner in the works here..." (as you stated). It was throwing the kitchen sink and a whole bunch of other stuff from the garbage disposal into what SHOULD HAVE BEEN a very simple and nice discussion. No need to mention Hayes or physics or anything like that. Just an informed answer to a common question.

Judging from your own admission: "i would imagine that the whole purpose of a rank-system is to provide an objective measure of the level of profficiency an individual is capable of demonstrating...but the impression i get is that this is not the case and that to even ask this question means i am missing some vital piece of knowledge about just what the grades are supposed to be for." you do not really understand very much about the Bujinkan ranking system and could have actually LEARNED something, rather than trying to take things off on some uninformed tangent that has nothing to do with such a simple matter.

AGAIN, your post is nothing but a tangent that should be dedicated to its own thread.

FEEL FREE TO POST all your ideas (drug induced or otherwise) on your own thread. But seeing how this question of "15th dans" comes up over and over, wouldn't it be nice to not to have some weird tangent about "basic physics" from mucking up what should be a straightforward answer?

Your mileage may vary....

-ben

 

ben,

first, it is YOU who has blown one post out of all proportion and given it far more attention than required

it is YOU who insist on pulling lines and words out of my posts and forcing a hardline interpretation of them such that i post back in an attempt to correct misrepresentation

it is YOU who brought drugs into the equation

if you go back to my original post, the intent is quite transparent...i give a bit of background to my train of thought and enquire as to any connections people are aware of between the godai and the judan ranking system. I mention SKH to prevent someone jumping in and saying that the godai was his creation etc 'cause i was trying to move discussions past that so we can look a bit deeper into the history etc

all side issues came about in response to the manner in which you replied.

i stand by my post, because the discussion, at that time, was about the elemental names

am i to take it that we can now only post back words that are in the title of the thread? sort of turns the forum into 'anagrams corner' though, but i'm sure we'll get used to it

i could pull your above post apart, but frankly i'm a bit dissappointed in myself that i've given you this much of my time.

dale,

really good explanation from your site, thanks for that.

does this imply that, in sokes eyes, all people from, say godan, have reached an equivalent level of 'something'? Or does soke promote people who may not be 'as profficient' as others of equal status? I ask, because from a students perspective, a conistent ranking system helps inspire confidence in the instructor.

sattori

its all just psychology practice

 

Ben, I think you may have gone ever so slightly over the top in your response to Xenmaster's post! If my understanding of what he asked is correct then he had a valid point (although, for God's sake don't asked me to explain it!!!!!!!!)

I think it is fair to say the discussion has thown up a few points:
1. Hatsumi can decide on what ever grading structure he likes.
This goes without saying surely!
2. The extra Dan grades are infact divisions of Judan but are, for convience, referred to as 11th Dan etc...
3. They are a gift and not "bought".

I am more interested as in why the Godai or the Sanshin model **puts on hard hat and waits for Ben** was used to describe these divisions. Do the divisions have any relevance or commonalities with regards to the Sanshin or Godai. Like I asked earlier, is it only out of convenience or familiarity the names of the Sanshin are used? After all, why five divisions and not three or another ten?

 

Xenmaster,
Ben Cole lived for years in Japan and served as Soke's translator. One would think that if someone like that said that Steve's stuff had nothing to do with what is being taught in Japan, people should listen. You have been training for a little over a year or two IIRC. Best you listen to those who know what they are talking about.

Well Bouk,

If you choose to do something on Thursday, does that have anything to do with the god of thunder? Thursday= Thor's day after all.

From my understanding, these ideas have been around so long that they are used as counting systems. In the original san shin no kata, nobody from Japan seems to ever talk about doing Ka no kata with a 'fire feeling.' Steve added that on. The first kata of the san shin is chi and the first division of the new ranks is called chi. They are used for counting, not feelings in either case. The feeling of earth, etc are all Steve's stuff and not Bujinkan.

Go ahead and start a thread over at Kutaki with all the guys who live in Japan about this subject. No one who has lived in Japan will back up Steve's interpetation or say that they learned to do "earth stances" from Soke.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

Correct.

 

I've enjoyed this thread far more than I thought I would, I've learned a few things and had a few more clarified.
So just incase there's any more good info to come: Ben and Xen - please don't get it locked

 

indeed

 

A very interesting thread, so much to learn!

on a non-serious note, my friend is just disapointed the ranks arent genin, chunin and jonin




(naruto is my second favourite anime )

 

those ARE ranks. But not BB ranks.