A question About high rank in Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Jungdo, Jul 5, 2005.

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  1. Jungdo

    Jungdo Valued Member

    I come from korean arts hence the user name.
    And the highest ranks that one can get in those arts are 9th or 10th.
    But when one looks at the ranks of the bujinkan and myabe the other ninja schools. There is 10th through 15th dan or higher is there an end to the ranks.
    I know that Soke is the highest and he can make as many ranks as he wants to. Like 125th dan. I was wondering why so high ranks. Couldn't more things be tought at each rank. I am not in anyway trying to bash the art. I am just trying to understand what s going on there.
  2. thomaspaine

    thomaspaine Valued Member

    I think Hatsumi's response to this question has always been something like, why 10? Why not 8, or 5, or 3, or 15? My guess, and this is pure speculation, was that he had people at 9th or 10th dan and realized that these people had more to learn, so he made extra ranks. Afterall, he was still developing his taijutsu and the Bujinkan during this time and as he got better I'm sure he found more and more holes in his students learning.

    I've thought about it, and doubt that it's so he can rake in a little extra cash from all those 10th dans by promoting them to 15th dan, because as far as I know there's not too many 10-15th dans out there, so it doesn't seem very lucrative. No idea what the cost of being promoted is once you're in the dans though.
  3. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    I bet you are, Why dont you go out and train in the art to understand it?

    After Judan (10th Dan) there is:

    Judan chi gyo
    Judan Sui gyo
    Judan Ka gyo
    Judan Fu gyo
    Judan Ku gyo

    So unless your in the art dont worry your little self on the bujinkan politics, we can do that ourselves!!!
  4. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    I think after a certain level the ranks are a gift??? :confused:
  5. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    I thought so also, i thought it was free after a certain level, but since Korean Warrior has bugger all to do with the Bujinkan he doesnt need to know the ins and outs does he!!
  6. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    WRONG, all grades from 11-15th Dan are free, they are a gift from sensei, please try and get facts right before committing them to print!.
  7. Bouk Teef

    Bouk Teef Valued Member

    It still is a fair question to ask why Hatsumi created these extra / additional / sub-grades? Obviously it's not fair to suggest it is due to financial reasons as this clearly isn't the case.

    I hear he has a wonderful sense of humour. Could this have anything to do with it? :p :p
  8. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Dunno but i doubt its going to be shared on here!! ;) especially with a guy who does hung do!! :D
  9. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    I agree Keith but it`s something you would have to ask Sensei himself, but it`s been said before, we are not actually 11th, 12th Dans etc, in fact we are all Judans, only seperated by elements, so my grade is actually Judan Kagyo(10th Dan Fire element) which in the westerners eyes would be 13th Dan, i prefer Judan Kagyo, i hope somebody like Dale or Dan could expand on this.

    And yes, as the last part of your reply says,he has cracking sense of humour.
  10. xen

    xen insanity by design

    just throwing a spanner in the works here...

    much of what SKH wrote about the 5-element theory has been subsequently discredited as being more from his mind that Hatsumi's...

    and past threads have often mentioned Hatsumi's feeling that specific focus upon the 'physical' elements can detract from the essence of the art...

    yet he then incorporates into the Bujinkan a series of Judan sub-divisions based upon the elements...

    surely this would indicate that the elemental approach is still a valid way of conceptualising the way energy flows and transforms itself??

    any thoughts??
  11. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    You are wrong. That's my thoughts. There is a lot of difference between Soke giving titles from the san shin to the extra ranks and thinking in terms of "fire techniques" or "Water stances."

    Go ahead and point me to a concrete example of Soke talking or teaching about things like what Steve created. The Bujinkan has san shin, but it does not have the emotional states, etc that Steve created through his lack of understanding.
  12. Bouk Teef

    Bouk Teef Valued Member

    No sitting on the fence for you!! :D ;) :D

    Do the sub-divisions have any basis in whatever Sanshin may or may not represent? If not, could it be fair to say that the sub-divisions could be referred to by any other name. Is it only out of convenience or familiarity the names of the Sanshin are used? I may have misunderstood; if so then I'll apologise in advance. :)

    If the assumptions above are correct, it still begs the question: why do these extra sub-divisions (as opposed to grades) exist. Were they to actually be taken literally?

    Norman: On a slightly different point, and I raise this for clarification and not as a dojo or person attack, why is it the case that on your web site your Judan sub-division is referred to as 13th Dan etc... as opposed to Judan Kagyo (10th Dan Fire element)?

    edit - text removed
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2005
  13. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    er Bouk Teef in the about us section it's down as Judan Kagyo.
  14. Bouk Teef

    Bouk Teef Valued Member

    Thanks for that Spooky.

    That does clarify it some what! :) I've edited some of it but I think the questions in the post are still worth answering if only for my [further] clarification?
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2005
  15. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    The "10th+" dan ranks are commonly referred to conversationally in Japan as 11th dan, 12th dan, etc. (including by Soke) -- it's shorter and simpler. As has been pointed out, however, these actually are subdivisions within the 10th dan grade.

    Just to be nitpicky about the Japanese terminology, it's not properly "chi-gyo", "sui-gyo", etc. as used by a lot of Europeans in particular; but rather chi-i, sui-i, and so on. Thus, in referring to my own rank, I could describe it as "judan ka-i happo biken no menkyo" or I could use a dan grade. I generally opt for simplicity.

    This bit from the FAQ on ranks at my website may be useful:

  16. xen

    xen insanity by design

    i wasn't making a statement of right or wrong, just asking a question..

    re; 'what soke is teaching'...

    i have read that Hatsumi focuses his teaching efforts towards those who have already reached godan...this would seem to me to indicate that what he does or does not say is directed toward those who already posess a deep understanding of the art...

    and you mentioned san-shin...surely the very fact that the kata uses the chi-sui-ka-fu-ku labeling system would go someway to indicate that at some point in history the five elements and thier interactions served as a useful conceptual model of reality

    w.r. grimjack, i think you have a blindspot with regards to SKH and the godai.

    I am less interested in whether or not something came from Hatsumi's mouth and more concerned with any intrinsic value an idea may hold.

    For the sake of argument, we'll call it 'SKH's Godai'...

    as an oversimplified model of the basic interactions of the phenomena of the physical universe, the SKH Godai does serve as a valid tool. All obsevable phenomena can be classified as one of the four elements and the way these classes interact can be defined along reasonably consistent lines. The element of ku can be used in the way SKH does, to classify the 'formless potential of the sub-atomic realm' which is the underlying substrate upon which our universe is built.

    As I said in a previous thread a few months ago, the SKH Godai seems to represent his own way of classifying data in accordance with his own understanding (limited or not)...

    Anyway, this is old ground...i am really just trying to understand why a kata which (among other things) has a relationship to the element theory (and is of such fundamental importance it exists alongide kihon happo as a basic set of skills) should use such names if the elemental side of things is just a myth.

    I mentioned it on this thread because the fact that Hatsumi decided to label his divisions of judan along EXACTLY the same lines would seem to indicate that the progression through an understanding of the nature of and relationships between the elements is somthing he attachs some importance to.

    NB< note i use words like 'seem to indicate', this is an example of someone thinking things out for themselves and experimenting with different trains of logical thought to see where it leads. I prefer this to blindly following somone elses philosophy as my philosophy has my best interests at heart (just like their philosophy develops in relation to their own life).. :p ;)
  17. James L

    James L Valued Member

    There is nothing wrong with asking this question, and I hope some of the information shared here (especially Dale's), helped to answer your questions.

    As to the people who jumped down your throat for asking...I would ignore them. You asked your question respectfully, and there is nothing wrong with being interested in, or learning about other arts.
  18. thomaspaine

    thomaspaine Valued Member

    Whoa, calm down. Maybe you should read my post more carefully. I said that I did NOT think that Hatsumi was doing it as a money making venture. My point was that I could see how people outside the Bujinkan might get a little suspicious by the 15 dans and make the comparison to the mcdojos that have a billion belt ranks just to make money, but I did not think that this was Hatsumi's goal.
  19. Jungdo

    Jungdo Valued Member

    He may have a bugger, because he is thinking about joining that art.
    So he may or may not learn the ins and outs with out you.
    Oh thanks dale your a cool guy
  20. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    It's a legit question no matter who you are. Hatsumi does things his way, because he can. Personally, it helps me more if I think of it as Judan being a college degree and the "11th thru 15th" as being "Majors".
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