A matter of respect.....or lack thereof

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by campsinger, Oct 5, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    No.

    I have no need to make videos. My teacher doesn't, but there would be no point for me and would be hard to do and maintain anonymity. Videos aren't better than first hand experience, and ninjutsu needs to be experienced first hand if you ever want to come close to understanding it. For those who are merely curious and not seriously worried about understanding it, they will have to make up their own minds however they deem fit.
     
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Did you really just use an Atheist as the best example of a fanatical religious conversion?

    If your argument for the BJKN's validity is that you've just gotta have faith, that's a very weak argument indeed.
     
  3. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    Well, it could go the other way, as well. Ever knew a girl that was pretty trashy in high school, dated the "head bangers", cussed like a sailor, smoked behind the gym, drank every weekend, slept around, talked back to teachers and her parents, etc, then two decades later you see her on Facebook preaching about Jesus, disrespectful kids, and how girls should wait until marriage? I've seen it more than once.

    And the lineage of almost any martial art is subject to some kind of "faith test". I mean, eventually you get to the point where someone says they trained under someone else, either decades or centuries ago. I mentioned TSKSR, which is Japan's most prestigious school of swordsmanship, owing it's origins to a magic stream. Now, you can still train there, respect the lineage and the techniques, and understand that magic streams and tengu and kappa might really have nothing to do with it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2016
  4. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    I think these are very debatable. Videos provide an objective visual reference, without bias. Of course they can be interpreted in a multitude of ways, but generally they are far better evidence than first hand experience (and why video is often more valuable than testimony in court). Let's not conflate visual evidence of something with what I think you mean, PR, as "understanding"...let me explain a bit further because in doing so, I think it will help support some of what you're trying to say, while pointing out the informal fallacy in your rhetoric.

    As far as 'understanding', this isn't so black and white. I get what you mean, that to really learn the art you need to practice it, and as an example let's use a favorite topic of mine, art history. The artist and the art critic are often considered to be two completely separate things. The artist will often claim that only they truly understand a work, because they made it, but they often miss the bigger picture (how their art affects others). The critic exists to help others put the artists 'creativity' in context: the art could be groundbreaking and never seen before, or it could be complete garbage. Of course the beauty is always in the eye of the beholder, meaning the dichotomy of the artist and critic is a false one: really these are just two people's opinions on the art. There could be in reality many different diverse opinions. Sometimes artists hate their work, critics love it, and nobody else ever sees it.

    Ultimately, unless either the critic or the art enthusiast knows how to work the same medium (whether we're talking oil paints, coal, thread, or photography), the artist can always claim they can't truly understand the work. But that's clearly a lie told by the artist to themselves....I can understand Munch's "The Scream" just fine, without a need of knowing anything about oil paints or pastels.

    So, in the special case of Ninjutsu, "needs to be experienced first hand" is not true if by understanding we're talking about comparative review which is what MAP is all about. When stood aside other martial arts, Ninjutsu clearly has reputation and quality problems that don't exist in some other arts to the same scale. So a better way of putting it is no, one doesn't really have to experience Ninjutsu first hand to get an understanding of it (in fact, I think I understand it just fine, having read most of M. Hatsumi's books, his writing was pretty clear on the matter). It might clarify things, or help become more intimate with the art under study BUT, you can't effectively argue that it's the only way to learn what the art is about. Your only recourse there is that of mysticism and ambiguity, and I think with respect to Ninjutsu that ship has sailed. Whatever uncertainty and esoterica the art once enjoyed is long gone, my friend.

    The art (warts and all) has been fully exposed, and therein lies the issue with the respect factor and this thread. The commercial enterprises promoting Ninjutsu are practically all suspect, from the 80's onward, there has yet to be really anyone with a substantial enough claim to the legacy of Ninjutsu that Japan itself would signify it. That issue is a major one for me, the fact that there's practically no mainstream Japanese acknowledgement of M. Hatsumi, or Takamatsu, making the term itself (Takamatsuden) subject to scrutiny. This is a term in Japanese defined, as I understand it, by those claiming to be his own students. If we take it to be the set of ryu ha that he transmitted (and as of today I understand that set to be an enormous hodgepodge), fine, but the term is still unofficial. Takamatsuden appears to attempt formalizing some legitimacy, and to make the transmission seem older than it truly is. But, having read many posts here on MAP by knowledgeable people with first hand experience (all the things PR says are required), they still suggest that while the arts themselves are truly older, the training methods as practiced by Takamatsu, and his students, and presumably including Hatsumi, have all suffered the gentrification and pacification of Japan.

    In other words, it would appear these folks are handing down koryu traditions but simply not training the same as they would have been in the days of the koryu. And that might explain the quality control, infighting, and lack of real evidence of Ninjas fighting in 2016, or operating as Ninjas might have in the feudal age. The folks wearing black and attending Bujinkan sessions, either in the US or over in Japan, are in a way doing the same things as Civil War re-enactments. They're dressing, drilling, and playing the part. And to some degree I'm sure they're combining koryu and gendia empty handed and weapon art forms that are to a certain extent, historically accurate. But, they're not firing real muskets, or marching historically accurate distances, burning enemy stockpiles, and so on, so when someone makes a critique of effectiveness...Ninjutsu students need to take that in stride, and agree they are not Ninjas. I think that's the clear line....it's fine to train Ninjutsu, but the moment you believe you have earned a mantle of "Ninja", you're going to be laughed at, because it's very likely not true.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2016
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I skimmed it. I had issue simply with the first part of your post. Do I need to read the rest of your post for context of the first paragraph?
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Dude, it's kind of polite to read a post before replying to it. It also prevents people from having to repeat themselves all the time.
     
  7. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Is that true?
    Not sure....

    No recognition from a particular koryu association perhaps, but he's got plenty of recognition from other, arguably more mainstream, places
     
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    *Condescension*.... You should train in Japan... *obscure Japanese words*.... The nine Ryu are rarely taught to skinny white guys... *hypothetical technique* transmission of the techniques is not hand to mouth, they must be discovered by humping the instructors leg, smelling his farts and finding out in secret what techniques.... *more condescension* Soke does not teach but we should take what little we can from him but none of it means he is actually showing technique.... *maximum condescension within the ToS* Ninjutsu has striking even if you can't see it, perhaps if you learned under an authentic instructor in Japan..... You never actually learned Ninjutsu.

    Bog standard PR post.
     
  9. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    Even within our arts there is scrutiny. I was re-reading Kacem's book, and while it's among my favorites, he indirectly attacks Tanemura's lineage because there are no photographs of Takamatsu with Sato Kinbei. Therefore, how can we really know they trained together? Do we merely accept his word?

    At the end of the day, most of us are martial artists with an interest in history, not professional historians. Kacem has a PhD in this area, and claimed a few years ago to have found Toda's grave, so he has the time (and knowledge of the Japanese language) to investigate this stuff.
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Still, if you're going to reply, it's sensible to read the post. If you know what the answer will be, why bother replying?

    As for obscure Japanese words, that's just the nature of technical jargon. The terms used in the Buj are no more obscure to me than those used in Judo, BJJ, Karate, FMA etc...
     
  11. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    If only there was some sort of iconic - abiet historically inaccurate - form of dress a ninja could wear to conceal their identity when making videos... Something to cover the face maybe... Nope I can't think of anything.
     
  12. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    lol, for dramatic flair he should wear a white oni mask with red wig, and have some mist hugging the ground around them. Actually, that would be pretty cool. And use some of those guitar riffs from the Quest videos!
     
  13. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Either that or a Michael Dudikoff prosthetic a la Point Break and an arm mounted eagle.
     
  14. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    Stop being lazy.

    You are now required to do 100 burpees before you even reply to a post in the Ninjutsu section.

    That way you'll be too tired to post right away and will have time to read as you catch you breath.

    :hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer::hammer:
     
  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not sure I get your whole art analogy but my idea is different. To really come close to correctly videotaping some aspects of these arts, you'd need multiple angles and even then, somethings the average person or even experienced martial artist might not get what they were watching. Even those experienced in these arts might miss the important points of what they're watching. It is funny, sometimes I will watch an old taikai from somewhere and see Hatsumi sensei demonstrating something and I will see something I didn't before. Yet people will ridicule even his videos, so what's the point of posting videos to "prove" something to others?

    As a training tool, I barely see the benefit, and it depends on who's watching. As a way of helping illustrate points, not really. I have seen enough of the techniques we train in other arts to know that they work, I have experienced applying them and having them applied on me to know they work, and I have seen and experienced firsthand the difference when trying to defeat the techniques, what happens when you try to resist to know they work. So I'm satisfied.

    Where written description fails, that is an issue with language. I can watch videos of people demonstrating our arts and find areas in which they could improve, but I have a lot of firsthand knowledge and experience with the techniques. The average Bujinkan practitioner might not be able to do the same thing. I have nothing to prove, so no need to make videos that would potentially affect my anonymity just to satisfy someone else's curiosity. If they are really that curious, they can seek out a shihan or soke of the arts and respectfully ask to feel them for themselves. If and when my teacher starts making videos, I might rethink their value, but you can train in and pick apart and apply these techniques for years and someday experience a breakthrough that allows you to do them better, this process comes from understanding the body, movement, and learning to let go; all without watching a single video.

    Most of the "secrets" of the arts will remain secret because those who know and can demonstrate them rarely do in the setting most people expose themselves to the arts through. You won't find them at taikais or hombu, but only through one on one training and after levels of training have been experienced. They are often subtle and small things that make the difference, so you won't be able to see them in video or see them if you don't know where to look, or be able to figure them out without having felt them yourself.
     
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    On the video thing, I'll add one last point. In Japan they have a term called kami hitoe 紙一重, which means that things can be determined by the thickness of one sheet of paper. With a lot of the techniques, a small move of the foot or realignment of the body can mean all of the difference between a workable and efficient technique and having something that either doesn't work or you have to add force, speed, or something else to make effective. If you can't relax and make the techniques work, you can't do them. However, keeping calm under stress is a trained ability and many do not make it a priority. Another thing people do not have is the ryutai(dragon body) which is another important aspect to make the techniques work. For example, without a certain grip strength you have to use localised power to grab something, a practice we from upon. If your tendons are strong enough, you will have a vice grip and not have to use tension to grab, then you can learn to let go while creating a similar effect on the opponent. So a certain amount of strength and flexibility are important to be able to make these techniques effective, and you cannot get any of that from a video.

    If you are arguing that your foot placement doesn't matter or that small details don't count, you are right. For you and your current understanding, they don't. So to watch a video showing these differences wouldn't mean anything. Yet that is just what some are asking us to produce for their gratification and entertainment. Methinks not.
     
  17. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Well, people post evidence to prove a point in general, we could be talking the science of sweat (see BJJ forum), or Ninjutsu. I have an old TaiKai as well (2003) so I know what your context is. But video in general is very useful especially in martial arts you just said it yourself, sometimes you watch an old video and see something you missed. I've even seen video of at least one Bujinkan practitioner competing in open format (and not badly), so I know they exist, but they are as rare as pink unicorns man.

    I agree you appear to be satisfied. But, others like the OP of the thread are lamentin what they perceive to be a persecution, of which I'm sure you're well aware.

    At the same time they suffer from the martially unique aspect (hehe) of poorly documented lineages (I think that sums it up), but the modern Ninjutsu martial arts appear to be an attempt at historical re-enactment, like I said. That's an important differentiation I think between many other martial arts, and what the Ninjutsu schools offer....the average boxing or karate or judo club isn't attempting that serious a re-enactment, they focus on the syllabus.

    I've never met a Judoka who discussed Judo history. Not ever, and I have rolled with many of these guys and gals. I've met several Bujinkan folks including some really serious folks who at the same time admit a lot of what's out there is nonsense, but surprisingly little of that comes from M. Hatsumi himself or his direct students/shihan.

    That a real shame, man. Real shame is all I can say about that. If you're that serious, I'd consider myself blessed by such a video. It is possible to make good videos of anything, in my opinion.

    Whether we call it a "secret" or more appropriately a nuance (with the number of 'mega-dans', it's not such a secret right) I agree and the only way to learn these is to find a good instructor.

    Overall I think you get my point, that not enough people are interested in fact finding about Ninjutsu, and both students AND critics are guilty. Of course the old lineages were secret and trying to decipher them today is fruitless. It's a lineage war without end. The best thing to do is discuss what evidence there IS, not what remains hidden. I think there's plenty of evidence of ninjas, but not a lot of it is the sole property of the modern schools claiming to teach Ninjutsu. I do believe traveling to Japan can teach you a unique way of seeing Japan, but that comes from visiting any country. That's not so much about Ninjas, but having an idea of the type of people that would create Ninjas. Of all the covert assassin types in world history, the Ninjas stand out. I remember a recent thread where someone tried to claim they were a Chinese invention, and we blew that apart with facts. Ninjutsu can't quite ever be blown apart, even if its students can be, don't you think?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
  18. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I guess the thing that matters to me is my training. I don't need to make videos or ask my teacher to because I can ask him anytime I see him about any questions I have. I can train and pick apart parts of techniques to find out what their intricacies are. Making a video would not be a benefit for me because there are enough videos of the masters out there yet people still can't do the techniques. So then there must be another way to go about learning them.

    If people are sufficiently curious, they will seek out the answers. Those who would suffice with just seeing a video don't need to be pandered to. I'm not worried about people's opinions and beliefs. I'm worried about my training and my relationship with my teacher. If people worry about outsider's views, it means they don't have their own answers or confidence in their art, ability, or stance. I've had fights, I've competed, I've used what I know. I also know that my teacher could take me out no problem, so there is always room to grow and improve. There are answers built into the system but one has to train correctly and many don't.

    History is history, it is interesting but it is the past. We can only live in the present, and the future is where the truth of the past will be known. Until then, one can only train to their utmost and try to live the best they know how. Judoka or boxers might not discuss history, but I'm sure some do. Each art has something to offer, so people should enjoy them for what they find valuable.

     
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    You know....when there is video, it's supposed to mean something. This is the video I referred to.

    Taijutsu, Jiujitsu...what's the difference.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6GXilaKXv8"]A Real Ninjutsu Practitioner in his first Pro MMA fight - YouTube[/ame]
     
  20. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    Just an aside: This isn't a good thing.

    Kano's judo is a deep and beautiful art, as much a philosophy as a method of training and conditioning.

    It's not a good thing that the IJF bans techniques every year, that the Japanese barely have a seat at the table when it comes to judo, that blue dogi and European bureaucracy have displaced ideas and an appreciation of koryu.

    Donn Draeger wrote quite a lot about this.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page