A matter of respect.....or lack thereof

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by campsinger, Oct 5, 2016.

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  1. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    Didn't the Kuki family stop practicing their arts in the Edo period? Didn't Takamatsu re-introduced some of the Kukishin material to them? How much of that information didn't come from Takamatsu himself?

    "all of which regard..." as in: "All of which claim Yakushimaru Ryushin as the founder" as in: "That's what they say"?

    I understand that information coming from the site of the Kuki family might seem very reliable, but don't you agree that a lot of times things aren't exactly what they look like? For years people told me Takamatsu was recognised by the Kuki family, and used that to legitimize his teachings. But then i learned that this same family no longer practiced the arts and Takamatsu actually helped them recovering some of the knowledge, and for that received an honorary title.

    The question is: Did the Kuki family even know more about "their" arts than Takamatsu himself?


    What information states that Takamatsu received Sokeship in Kukishinden Ryu Happô Hikenjutsu? Do you have any, prior to his death?

    No, we didn't.

    1) Two arts having the same name doesn't mean their meaning is the same.

    2) You didn't mention who trains "Koto Ryu Koppojutsu" without being connected to Takamatsu. I don't doubt that there are other schools with the same name of Takamatsuden's schools. Hell, doesn't the BRDJ lists quite a few Gyokushin Ryu? That means absolutely nothing.



    I'm not worked up. Just pointing out the fact that there's pretty much no solid evidence that his claims are real. And that's why he gets questioned so much, right? If there was indeed evidence, nobody would talk so much about it.

    It's amazing that they give you all these stories, all these names, they have all this information about something that is 900 yo, and yet, there's no record of anything they claim.

    It's up to the people who claim something to prove it. Or at least to be honest about it. Is Hatsumi honest about it? Is he honest about it with people who spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to learn his art? I don't think he is.

    I'm aware of that. It's just strange that every single one of his schools have an uncommon name that can barely be found in any other school.

    I know he had students. It's just amazing that we only hear about Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu in the late 50's. No other mention of the school prior to that, despite him being the soke of it for almost 50 years. Isn't strange?

    But there are so many old records of so many old Ryu-Ha. Even Ryu-Ha that haven't been practiced for centuries. What's so rare and difficult about finding records of an extremely old Ryu-Ha? Or even the people involved with it? And why do all the Takamatsuden schools suffer from the same problem? We barely can verify Takamatsu's teacher for most of them. We can't find any mention of the schools prior to him. We have a bunch of names that started to come to public in the 50's, despite him having Sokeship for decades, and then we have some evidence that he actually trained in a couple of styles that weren't even called what he calls them. And we also don't have any evidence that he received Sokeship in those styles, just Menkyo Kaiden.

    Why the effort in defend in this? Would you do the same for any other guy claiming to be the Soke of 20 unverifiable styles? Christa Jacobson, for example. What's the difference between her and Takamatsu? Just the fact that he is Japanese? Nobody can verify their claims. But she does have some legit MA background. But some of the claims aren't verifiable. According to most people here, that means she is lying. But when it comes to Takamatsu, that , somehow, doesn't mean the same exact thing?

    We have a bunch of bold claims, some of them very well detailed, but we have zero evidence. You know, in Japan people also lie.

    Plus, we have a man that has zero respect for what he teaches. How legit can he be? A man selling his art like it was a box of donuts. Giving out high ranks to thousands of bad martial artists in his precious ancient tradition. How many people who actually hold a legit tradition do you know that do this? People who usually have something this special in their hands tend to respect it. Especially in Japanese culture. Just through actions Hatsumi is telling in your face "Hey, this is all joke. Here, take your 10th dan". He is telling you that, and you still choose to believe him and have respect for him. If he was American everyone would be laughing at him and you would certainly not respect him.

    Is there a Kukishinden Ryu Happô Hikenjutsu school that's hundreds of years old and was passed down by the men listed in the lineage? If not, it's fraud. How is it not fraud? You're selling claims. You're telling people "Here, give me X money and you can learn 9 traditions with X-story and X-lineage". People say "wow, that sounds so cool.." and they pay for it. But it turns out those traditions didn't really exist in the way you claim they existed. Where i live that's fraud. I was told i was training something that's 900 years old. Since people talked about the history of the style, the techniques and the previous Soke i assumed they really had an evidence all those things existed. Turns out, there's zero evidence of anything, and no one told me there wasn't. No one gave me the opportunity to choose whether or not i wanted to spend my money in something unverifiable. How is that not fraud? I was certainly ripped off.

    There are photos floating around of him on a film set. There articles from the 60´s that talk about him. Didn't Hatsumi also wrote books before Takamatsu died? I'm pretty sure he was mentioned in media several times. I won't bother giving you a list of names because when i read something i don't write it down. But i've certainly read articles about him that were that old and mentioned him as being a ninja master. And also, there's that footage we all saw of him. It's not like he was hiding from the cameras.

    He becomes a ninja master all of the sudden.


    No, that's the nature of fraud. Claiming things that aren't real and charging money for it. You have several schools out there that can at least date their existance back a few centuries. The problem is that we can't prove anything that Hatsumi claims. The problem is that we can't prove nothing. Zero. Nothing. There's no evidence of anything. We can't prove that there was a Togakure ninja school, or a gyokko ryu kosshijutsu school, or a koto ryu koppojutsu school, or a Toda ninja master. Do you understand the problem? It's not just you that can't prove EVERYTHING. It's simply that you can't prove ANYTHING. You can't prove things that happened not that long ago.

    What a pathetic stance. I'm just glad now i'm not training in something legit where i don't have to do crazy gymnastics to justify the garbage that i'm training.

    And yeah, Takamatsuden people love burden of proof shifts. Lol. I wonder whu :hat:

    As i said, it's my opinion. Do you know what an opinion means? It means i think something happened in a certain way. Doesn't mean i know. It's really difficult to prove something didn't exist unless the people who invented the story confess it. But hey, just because you can't prove i'm really a Shaolin Master with the ability to kill people with my breath doesn't mean you can't justifiably assume that i'm not telling you the truth. When there's a huge claim being made and absolutely zero proof of that claim, you can't expect people to believe you. Especially in a world with so many frauds known for doing exactly that.
     
  2. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    When you know, you know. That's a comfort i have. There's no doubt in me. You're free to post a video of yourself sparring with a resisting opponent and successfully tagging him with the typical Bujinkan tsuki over and over again. You won't do it because you can't. It's not a good punch, it's slow, it's easy to telegraph, it doesn«t represent a natural body movement, and that's why nobody adopts it in real fights.

    You see, it's not difficult to prove something works. Only people who train uneffective styles go through all the trouble of trying to justify what they train with words. If you train boxing you can just send a video to someone and shut him up. There's no longer any mystery regarding what works and what doesn't work. Your style doesn't work. Just deal with it.
     
  3. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    Damn!!! Again with the whole "you didn't learn the real arts" thing. Let me get this straight: I did learn Bujinkan Budô Taijutsu for more than 10 years. I did train in Japan. I did train with some of the most important Shihan in the world. I did participate in several Taikai. I did learn whatever there is to learn in the Bujinkan. You need to stop pretending(and the BJK crowd in general) that whoever doesn't think your system is effective, or whoever doesn't interpret your system the way you do, didn't learn it properly or didn't understand it. I did learn it properly. I just don't think it's effective. I just don't think it's a viable form of fighting or self defense. I think it has a few elements that can be useful if trained correctly(AKA not trained in the way BJK folks do it), but as a whole, it's not effective. It doesn't matter how many henka you can come up with. The foundation is not good. If someone asks me how to throw an effective punch i won't teach them the Bujinkan tsuki. Why? Because there's better ways to hurt someone with your fists, and i'm only interested in the best stuff.

    "You don't possess the real ninja knowledge"

    Do you have any idea how goofy that sounds? Yeah, i've never seen the magical scrolls in person. I didn't train in the secret arts. Yeah, you're right, i didn't. Neither did Hatsumi. That's why no one in the Koryu community believes him or takes him seriously.

    I can tell you though that since i've trained with people with a strong military background, i did learn certain skills that are widely accepted as being Ninja skills. I can also tell you that i've spent more time training those skills than most people in the Bujinkan did, including most Shihan, since what most people do is nothing more than Taijutsu. I can tell you that almost every week i would do some sort of "Ninja training". Maybe i even have more experience in that area than you. I just don't think the knowledge i've received came from some ancient Ninja scroll. I also don't think there is much "Ninja stuff" i could learn from Hatsumi, since i've spent most of my training years around people who were more Ninja than Hatsumi AKA people who actually had to know those advanced military skills because that was their job.
     
  4. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    RoninX, if you're so convinced that ninjutsu doesn't work and is not the art for you, why are you spending so much time in this forum. It's starting to feel like you are here to promote your own anti-ninjutsu agenda.

    The mods are watching this forum at the moment and we will take action if we feel any poster is here only to cause trouble and try to convert the non-believers to their anti-ninjutsu stance.

    I suggest you tone down your aggressive and confrontational posting style.
     
  5. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    There's nothing more fanatical than a convert. Ever meet a die-hard atheist only to find out they were mentally abused by Christian zealot parents as a kid? We get a lot of those former ninpo types online. They couldn't get Taijutsu to work so they launch a crusade against the Takamatsudent arts. It's not uncommon, Bullshido is full of them.

    And no, the O-Tsuki is not a great technique, it's a training tool. I wouldn't use it in a fight anymore than I would try to pull guard on someone. Use it to train techniques which you can later incorporate into a clinch (oni kudaki, gyoja dori, muso dori, O-gyaku, hon gyaku, te-makura, seoi-nage, setto, suisha, etc).

    I'm comfortable with many of the techniques in our art, uncomfortable with others. I work on those but wouldn't use them in a real situation. I can use some in randori, others I can't, I accept those as part of our system but I realize they're not in my toolbox.

    By cross-training with a little Judo, and having experience in Boxing and Karate (well, Korean Karate), I am able to "modify" the art to suit me, and add more things. People do this in MMA all the time. It doesn't reflect negatively on the art, in my opinion. BJJ doesn't suck because you use a kick from Muay Thai.

    Personally, I don't care if a 10th dan in the Bujinkan sucks. I think a lot of people in our art are terrible because their instructors are teaching before they're ready; this might be Hatsumi's fault, I'm not particularly worried about it. Too much "flowing" stuff, and young people trying to copy his movement, without benefit of going through the "white gi" years back in the 60's and 70's, when they were all training hard outdoors, sparring and conditioning like crazy.
     
  6. garth

    garth Valued Member

    I've given up with him. As I said history is not always there to support a claim' and therefore many things we believe are about faith. Now
    I understand his skepticism because im critical of the history myself but Ronin X wants it all laid out for him on a plate.

    But as Frodoscious has stated' I'm wondering why he is here. He clearly doesn't want to do the art anymore. Move on and let us fake ninjas live in our dream world.
     
  7. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    No, i don't want everything laid out for me on a plate. I asked about evidence of Togakure existing before the 50's. I asked about evidence of Takamatsu actually having a verifiable Sokeship in a Ryu-Ha not created by him. Neither of these things should be that difficult to prove. It shouldn't be that difficult to prove that Toda existed. I'm not even asking for proof about the whole story. Just proof that this wasn't all created by Takamatsu. It's not asking that much. Nobody can provide prove of any of these things, therefore i don't believe them. Why? Because it takes a lot more than a person's word for me to believe in a bold story.


    "former ninpo types"

    Yeah...poor them. They had the maturity to grow up, seek information and realize that what they trained was garbage. And now they call you out in forums like this. What a bummer. Now the BJK crowd can no longer mislead people with their manipulative way of justifying nononsense. It's tough.

    Oh, you don't care about bad instructors, bad quality control and a Soke who doesn't care about providing his students with quality. That says a lot about you. You're in a bad organisation, you know your organisation is bad, but you don't care. And you talk about being fanatical? That's the highest form of fanaticism that can possibly exist. You're aware of how ridiculous your org is and you don't care. You follow the teachings of a man who sells ranks. A man who doesn't respect his own art. A man who doesn't bother with the fact that he has filled his organisation with bad instructors, passing out bad skills. And you don't care. Like i said, that says a lot about you.
     
  8. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    I'm here because i believe certain people should be exposed. I have the right to say whatever i want about this style because i've experienced and i've paid for it for many years. When you go to amazon looking for a product, do you think people who didn't like the product shouldn't waste their time warning others and complaining about it? I think criticism is very important. This is a subject that grabs my interest, that's why i talk about it. I wasn't aware you were only welcomed to say good things about the Bujinkan. If you really want a place where good information is provided, maybe you shouldn't just have people saying "hey, this is great". You should also have people saying "hey, it actually isn't". Then people reading will decide for themselves what path they wanna follow.

    When i started training there was no website warning me about the holes in the holy. Imagine how much money i could have saved if there was a place like this with people like me telling it like it is. Imagine how many people will read posts like mine and think twice before spending their hard earned money on something that has absolutely no way to prove either its authenticy or effectiveness. If you ever censure someone for doing what i'm doing you will be responsible for a big disservice to the martial arts community.

    You don't like how i talk or what i'm saying? Well, i don't see you intervening when someone claims i'm fanatical, or that i don't know the r3al ninj3er d3adly art, without even providing any sort of acceptable evidence of me being wrong.
     
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Sooooooo.......

    You do realise of a soke/menkyo kaiden of an art has the license to change the art as they see fit, so Takamatsu is fully allowed to of given out 3 different branches....

    And the step through punch isnt by any means the only punch trained?
    The front and backhands strike (and grab) as well as the step through.

    There's lots wrong with the bjkn method but your current criticisms are logically inaccurate.

    ps who'd of thought id be the one saying this!
     
  10. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Mod note: You will not say "whatever you want" here. You must abide by the Terms of Service like everyone else.

    There is a difference between simply critiquing another style for discussion and debate and having an agenda to just put down a style and put down its practitioners en masse just to be argumentative.

    The Ninjutsu practitioners are a part of the MAP family. And while they, like everyone else, have to be open to hearing critiquing of their art, they do not have to be dragged into the nonconstructive agenda of someone who just hates their style. There is a line to be crossed where one goes too far. The purpose of MAP is friendly discussion, not pursuing an agenda to the detriment of other valued Martial Artists trying to have fun discussing their loved art. You have been warned by the mod team to not cross it repeatedly.

    Also, as you have also already been told. arguing about mod decisions in a thread drag down and disrupt the thread. Therefore, complaints about mod actions are to be by reporting a post or PMing a member of the mod team.

    Take a couple of days off to think about this and please follow the Terms of Service (which can be found at both the top and bottom of your screen) before posting again after you come back.


     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  11. kevin g

    kevin g Valued Member

    I'm not going to leave an art that I love just because of what is going on at another dojo, or even at Hombu. Well, technically I left the Genbukan because of what was going on at Hombu. I actually enjoy that aspect of the Bujinkan (freedom), and left the Genbukan because of the overwhelming curriculum, and the fact that too much quality control can stifle growth as a martial artist.

    A crappy instructor doesn't reflect on me anymore than an MMA douche reflects on good guys that train in their art, or a bad cop reflects on a good department. I knew bad soldiers but didn't run from the Army screaming about how awful the organization was, and launch a crusade against them all.

    So you didn't like Ninpo, enjoy whatever you're doing now. You're not going to convince us to leave or anything like that, anyone that's been doing Takamatsuden for more than 10 years has heard it all before. You're not "exposing" anything new, we all know about the questions pertaining to Togakure and Toda, we've all had the "lunge punch" debate, and most of us are cross-training at this point, just like any martial artist should be doing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2016
  12. TomD

    TomD Valued Member

    No not really, only a bit of restriction from people who do not really seem interested in the arts/subject. I myself do not feel the need to go over to the MMA or karate forum to talk about these arts, even though I do have some opinions on matters relating to these arts. Why? cause I don't practice them and feel that my input may lead the conversation there astray. If I was interested in a topic and felt I had something useful to say, I would...
     
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Where to start?:dunno: Roninx's posts pretty much confirmed my hypothesis that he was angst riddled because he still didn't understand what he had experienced and probably felt betrayed. I tried to point out that he didn't know anything about real ninjutsu but that was probably too hard to hear so I'll try to be a little nicer and explain things again so he can hopefully come to a clearer understanding and maybe see reality for what it is and not his mistaken illusion of it.

    Sadly, Roninx doesn't understand what you pay for when you study a martial art in Japan. It is not a purchase like going to a store where you put your money on the counter and are given an item in return. You pay to help keep the lights on, you pay to be part of a community, you pay as a sign of respect to the teacher, to be in the group. You do not pay to be taught x certain of kata, or y numbers of skills, or z principles. The teacher shows, and you copy. There is no guarantee that you will develop the same level of ability as the teacher, and you most certainly never will as long as you think you are buying something. You could spend a million dollars and still not get it, your continual mentioning your financial contribution shows part of what your problem was/is.

    Hatsumi sensei obviously has respect for and protects the arts he inherited from his teacher. How could I say such a bold thing? Look at any certificates you have. They do not probably state that you are licensed in xyz ryu, but in budo taijutsu. He allows a lot of people to experience something of what he has learned/uncovered during his path as a marital artist, but "playing" at budo taijutsu in your black pyjamas doesn't mean that you have learned any of the ryu in particular, or anything found in the ryu in any exacting detail. Without having made that commitment to the schools and studied in that way(something that is again very very rare today), you could not possibly believe you know the faintest thing about ninjutsu.

    Or could you? It seems like this was the logical mistake you made and believed that you were somehow learning traditional Japanese martial arts when in fact you were learning something that was new, something very different from what the ryu represent. Hatsumi sensei is letting people practice something while maintaining the integrity and sanctity of his arts, to me that is something of a feat. Were he handing out ranks in the ryu like candy you'd have a point, but you are far off the mark.

    Funny this. A jab works. The first part of oitsuki is a jab or displacement of the person's guard. This opens them up for the followup strike. You probably learned and practiced this technique improperly, ignoring the importance of the lead hand, and resulting in something that wasn't a real oitsuki. You can tell yourself what you want, but by your posts you make it clear that you didn't learn the real aspects of these arts that make them effective, even after 10 years and some face time with all of the "important shihan." Perhaps you need to rethink what was important when learning an art.

    I rest my case. This quote alone shows that you didn't learn the first thing about the actual ryu that comprise the Takamatsuden, you were playing at BBT for 10 years. I know people who did that twice or three times longer than you but still have the same issues. It isn't a question about the Takamatsuden, it is a question of how and what aspects of the Takamatsuden you personally learned and worked on. If it was the actual ryu themselves from the kiso forward, you would know how to punch properly and wouldn't have an agenda to try to defame an entire art. I do pity you for your lack of knowing how and what to study, but you only have yourself to blame. Instead of making excuses when you found what you thought you knew didn't work, you should've been questioning if it could work and if you could be doing things to make it work? Instead, you pouted, blamed, and crusaded. It got you nothing but banned in the end, your skill set wasn't made useful or practical, though it could have been if you had a teacher disciple relationship with A shihan and learned from them personally for 10 years in a traditional way. Instead, you did the tourist route, the show up at a dojo and toe the party line.



    See, there you go again with "I think," "I believe," "I guess." Personally, I know how and why a lot of the techniques that go into the ryu work. I have experienced them working on me, and made them work on others. Not that we were all playing nice in slow motion while pink unicorns pranced around the room. You might have learned whatever there is to learn in BBT, but that isn't the same thing. I would agree that that isn't the most effective system to learn without a lot of tweaking but I'll tell you a secret, I don't learn BBT. You chose to do so and that is one big reason why you are still confused about the difference.



    Another statement that describes your lack of understanding. I don't come up with henka, there are official henka to the kata.



    Like what, a jab? Oitsuki has it. Like a rear hand power attack? Oitsuki has it. I'm sorry you didn't learn how to do it properly, but it is not something that everyone will get, just like algebra or quantum physics. Your foundation being bad doesn't mean that the foundation of the ryu are lacking, I can tell you unequivocally that they aren't.



    Good, we can move on.


    I'm sorry, but you don't sound that mature. Vengeful seems like a more appropriate description. You might have trained in something you didn't find useful, but that is on you. Nobody made you, that is unless your parents signed you up as a kid and made you keep training until you graduated from school 10 years later. Now that you are your own man, you have decided to do something else. Kudos for that. However, that isn't misleading or manipulating people. Saying people are 10dan in xyz ryu when they can't even demonstrate a proper oitsuki would be and Hatsumi sensei doesn't do that.

    If you actually bothered to read instead of just rant on MAP, you would find many examples of bad instructors and quality control being discussed. That you haven't speaks tomes about you and your agenda. Yet you lecture about fanaticism. Buying rank is just as bad(especially in a brand new made up art), so what rank are you?

    Hopefully, you will actual read a few threads here and reexamine why you are posting here on MAP. A lot of people who post here have issues with the Bujinkan, and that is fine. A lot of people here have spent time and effort debunking fallacies about these arts. I don't know of anyone who fits the descriptions you were trying to blanket the MAP ninjutsu community with. If you had learned even the first thing about ninjutsu, you would've found that perseverance and patience were two qualities that must be possessed by a potential ninja. Perhaps you will rethink your journey because it's never too late to improve yourself and your life. Good luck.
     
  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    By that measure your long reply about not undestanding Ninjutsu proves his hypothesis that Ninjas are all talk and no substance.
     
  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    By the speed of your post it's obvious that you didn't read it, proving that you aren't interested in adding anything useful to the conversation.
     
  16. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    In the spirit of enquiry Please Reality, have you ever posted videos of you demonstrating or teaching a principle or technique discussed here so that your knowledge and understanding of principles that you write about so eloquently in so many of your posts can be better understood? That would add far more to the conversation than words or a video of another person.

    Chadderz asks lots of questions and pays attention to answers. He also is happy to post training footage for critique. Although like me he cam be a little brusque in some posts, his questioning has resulted in posters like dunc adding a lot of useful information to the ninjutsu forum.
     
  17. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    In RPs defence there is a strong culture within the more sincere parts of the buj not to post videos

    The logic goes along the lines of "My teacher doesn't do it so I won't", or "I don't want to be lumped up with the crazies or self promotionists on YouTube"

    I can get away with it because I'm not known by people and hardly anyone watches my vids
     
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    By sincere do you mean:
    secretive? holistic? insular? incompetent? traditional?
    or none of the above? I'm guessing that you're saying there is a tradition of keeping tactics/techniques/principles restricted?
     
  19. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Not really, more a culture of not wanting to be seen to use what you've learned for self promotion and/or putting stuff out there when you're relatively immature and make your teacher/dojo look bad
     
  20. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    The people who train sincerely are a subset of those who are in tune with the Japanese culture

    For a bunch of reasons these go hand in hand

    Having said that I've no doubt that if I put up some BJJ vids the guys at my academy would take the Mikey out of me no end
     
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