A matter of respect.....or lack thereof

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by campsinger, Oct 5, 2016.

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  1. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    To be fair I see a lot of value in some of the techniques dunc has posted. My argument is more with training methodology but I have seen things which look as though they could be technically viable if trained properly. I think this is unjustly harsh.
     
  2. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    Well...yeah...maybe i can eat using my feet, but...why bother? Understand?

    People are so in love with the Ninja mysticism that they're willing to train something extremely inneffective and then waste time theorizing about ways they could possibly make these techniques work.

    To understand why a lot of people subject themselves to this is also important to understand all the appeal associated with the Bujinkan. It's not just the Ninja culture, which is fascinating. EASYNESS! That's what makes Bujinkan so tolerated by so many people. You can call yourself a master without having to sweat too much for it. You can wear a nice black belt and look cool without even being in shape. You can claim a 10th dan with less than 10 years of "training". You can teach people and be an authority in a martial art without ever having to test yourself. Understand the appeal? It is appealing. Not many other styles offer you such an easy and safe path.
     
  3. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Me three. God bless you MAP, don't ever change. Seriously
     
  4. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Catching up on this thread

    Personally I learn from the criticisms levelled at my core art (buj). Often there are important truths in them

    I feel that many of posters here have a mission to convert the world to their way of thinking which complicates the discussion somewhat, but that's natural and probably applies to me too

    Having said that most of the posters here respond directly to the points made and don't selectively choose what to engage in too much so it works for me
     
  5. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well I'm the fourth. It was from a different site, although with extremely similar rules. Like if MAP was American.
     
  6. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Ronin X posted

    Whilst I will agree that it is very difficult for us (Especially non Japanese speaking people who haven't got access to the scrolls) to find evidence of the legitimacy of Takamatsu training and rank, some years ago the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu people went flat out and stated that Takamatsu did hold the title of Grandmastership. They have taken the website down now but I have it here in black and white. They also mention Takamatsu in relation to Takagi Yoshin Ryu too.

    Quote: "Above are the views of Takamatsu Chosui, who learned both Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu"

    and...

    "With the contribution of Takamatsu Chosui and his master Ishitani Matsutaro who learned both schools of martial arts and gave support to the soke Kuki before and after the war,"

    In the notes its says ...
    "Ishitani Matsutaro was born in Akashi, Hyogo Prefecture. He was a son of Ishitani Takema Masatsugu, who was a teacher of Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Matsutaro left his house at the early stage of his life and studied under Iba Toyataro, from who he learned Kuksishin Ryu. It goes without saying that he leaned Takagiyoshin from his father"

    I believe that I am right in saying that the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu are very well respected in Japanese martial arts circles.

    Check out the Genbukan page where they have a full history of this Ryu Ha

    http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?1315&csProduct_productID=235

    Sure it was common for a Menkyo Kaiden holder to change a few things and we know that Takamatsu did, but a lot of this was because of his experience in real fights. We also know he added some Shinden Tatara Ryu to Kukishin Ryu, but as there are links between the two schools it maybe made sense at the time. However i think its a leap to say he created a bunch of new lines. Do you have any evidence of that?

    Yes see my post above. There are quite a few different lines of Kuksihinden Ryu as there are with Takagi Yoshin Ryu. For example there is Ishitani Line and Mizuta Line with Takagi Yoshin Ryu, which are both taught in the Takamatsuden.

    Serge Mols book page 17 on "Naming of Jujutsu and Jujutsu like styles "Some of the mostly commonly encountered are....Goho, Koppo

    He also mentions the term Koppo on page 24,and on page 53 he mentions Koppo and Koshijutsu alongside ****o jutsu. another term used in Gyokko Ryu. The term dakentaijutsu is also used here.

    Serge Mol holds the rank of Menkyo Kaiden in Enshin Ryu and Hoki Ryu Jujutsu.

    Also you are also aware of course that there are other teachers with none, or little connection to the Takamatsuden that are teaching Koto Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu etc?

    Why wouldn't they be general knowledge before the 1950s. Ninjutsu was an art of spying, that means its secret. The details of the SOE (Special operations Executive) in WW2 only became public knowledge a few years ago, i.e open to the public. Also I believe the Bugei Ryuha Daijitten gives it a date of at least 1868, which means Takamatsu could not have made it up.

    I believe I am right in saying that Kumogakure Ryu was a scroll that Takamatsu got possession and it shows techniques very similar to Togakure Ryu. I've heard a couple of things about Gyokushin Ryu, but as NO ONE in the bujinkan trains these schools I don't think it makes much difference if they were created or not.

    Yes except you do realise that Kukishin Ryu has a scroll called the Ryusen No Maki that includes spying techniques, and therefore theres no reason as Soke that Takamatsu couldn't do that. Also "Ninpo" does not equate exactly to "Ninjutsu"

    Yes and you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The facts are above:hat:

    Did he? I though Takamatsu lived in obscurity for most of his life, and Ninjutsu never took off till after his death. Hell they even trained in Judo Gis, so not exactly pushing the Ninjutsu image out were they?

    But lots of old Ryu Ha claim origins going back hundreds of years, and sometimes the founders were taught by tengu or other mythical creatures. Thats just the nature of Japanese martial arts. The problem with any recorded history is that it is almost impossible to get back beyond the 1800s when you are tracing lineages. Try researching your own family tree for example. It took me years to get past 1800 and that involved quite a bit of travelling, and hours in record offices. Now try to do it when you don't speak Japanese and forgetting the fact that Japan was bombed extensively in WW2, (Go to Ueno Park and you can still see the burn marks on the buildings from American bombers) and you start to see the difficulty.


    Yes two things here. I believe that Hatsumi is doing his own thing, which we can call Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I remember a documentary where he said that after his illness he changed his approach to training.

    However the Ryu Ha are very much real and work in reality.

    I think the problem is that people try to copy Hatsumi and what they should be doing is learning the Ryu Ha.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Could you clarify that with a bit more information for people that don't know you or your background so well garth? A number of people on forums often confuse reality with equating to combat sports (especially those involving contact) and while these can provide useful information and feedback for some elements and contexts that's not quite the same thing as the reality of non consensual (or the different arena of professional operational) violent incidents.
     
  8. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Hi John I think I have done that before

    ex police officer, worked in security and close protection for years, Head of security for a Psychiatric hospital, Qualified security trainer, have trained members of the British Army at their barracks and for local colleges, Police Commendation whist working in security for the arrest and restraint of a violent criminal. Carried out over 200 arrests a year as head of security for a major retailer, some of them violent.

    Started in Ninjutsu in 1985, been a bit of a nomad spending time with Genbukan, Hayes and Bujinkan.

    I will also send you some stuff I don't want to put on the internet.
     
  9. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    I found this interesting...

    (Also you are also aware of course that there are other teachers with none, or little connection to the Takamatsuden that are teaching Koto Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu etc?)

    Could you provide a little more detail on this statement? I have found other branches in Japan of these schools however they almost always trace back to Takamatsu sensei.

    I think the statement of Happo biken and TYR JUTAIjutsu not being found in other branches to be correct. Usually Takagi Ryu is found under other names like Jujutsu, even in lines from Takamatsu before Hatsumi sensei it was known as Jujutsu and not juTAIjutsu. There are some older lines of TYR called Koshi no Mawari or even Kempo. Similar with Kukishinden Happo Biken, I don't think it is usually found in other lines outside of Takamatsu's influence with this name.

    The term soke can also be tricky. Maybe it is best to say that Takamatsu sensei received Menkyo Kaiden in Takagi Yoshin Ryu etc and that Hatsumi sensei received the same, as did others. Most buj guys don't call people like Manaka, Ishizuka, Tanemura soke as they received menkyo kaiden of some of the arts. There can be multiple Menkyo Kaiden but if a system uses soke there can only be one. Not that a Kaidensha aren't a true leader for their own line but some arts actually have a "soke" that is chosen and will lead the next generation along with all of the current kaiden holders supporting them.

    Regards,

    Todd
     
  10. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Toddschweinhart posted


    What i meant by Takamatsuden is those that are teaching today i.e. Genbukan, Jinenkan, Bujinkan etc. I was thinking of Kaminaga Shigemi who was a student of Ueno Takashi, who in turn was a student of Takamatsu. However Ueno was also a menkyo kaiden holder of other styles i.e Asayama Ichiden Ryu and Bokuden Ryu, both established styles and I think he would have known if the art he was studying from Takamatsu was made up.

    Incorrect, the term Jutaijutsu goes back as far as the Edo period when Takagi Yoshin Ryu split into four lines one f which passed eventually to Takamatsu. This branch was Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu.


    Theres actually a scroll called Kuki Kappo Hen Jutaijutsu no maki. This is in the possession of the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin people. The term jutaijutsu can also be found in one of the Amatsu Tatara scrolls called the Kuki Jutaijutsu Kappohen no maki iirc.

    Thats because Menkyo Kaiden does not equal soke. Soke means "head of house" so only Hatsumi will carry this term.

    You have kind of answered your own question.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  11. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    Hello Garth,

    That makes more sense...I usually think of Takamatsuden as anything coming from him so naturally included Ueno and others since they received his arts also. I have yet to find anyone else in Japan teaching related arts however.

    To be more specific, Mizuta sensei line of Takagi Ryu was known as Jujutsu, and Takamatsu's earlier densho referred to TYR as Jujutsu as well. In the line of TYR Hatsumi has (maybe others too, I am not sure) it is known as Jutaijutsu, I have no idea why Takamatsu changed it at this point but his earlier writings it was called jujutsu.

    Many of the scrolls in the Kuki collection were also related to Takamatsu sensei. There is a lot of questions regarding the Amatsu Tatara stuff in general as well. In one densho by Takamatsu sensei he has included people of other very well known and documented ryuha that have no trace of the Amatsu in their own schools. The Jutaijutsu term for TYR, as far as I know, hasn't been seen in any of the branches from some time back. We can discuss more via PM if you would like.

    I am aware of what the terms mean...but furthermore, what I am saying is that IF Takamatsu sensei wasn't soke (maybe only kaiden) then he couldn't really designate anyone else to be soke. We also know he gave menkyo kaiden to people before Hatsumi sensei as well so they also have legitimate claims to his lineage, as does Hatsumi. Matter of fact, the group you mentioned, under the late Kaminaga sensei, states they are the true soke of some of the schools from Takamatsu as they received the "complete" transmission. Who knows but maybe best to call them kaidensha and not soke.

    This is definitely true for Takagi Ryu from Ishitani sensei, the dojo Takamatsu was a member of. They currently still have a soke in their line and it isn't Hatsumi sensei. With this being said, there are many kaidensha in the line but only one soke. Maybe same with the kuki group as well, if they have someone acting as soke, shihan etc, how could someone else be soke.

    I guess this just really adds to all the confusion.

    Regards,
    Todd
     
  12. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    God damn. This thread got really dull really fast :p
     
  13. ToddSchweinhart

    ToddSchweinhart Valued Member

    Spice it up, Chadderz!

    Regards,

    Todd
     
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Yes, you are wrong on a lot of issues but...

    I have lived and trained in Japan for far longer than your 8 years at x dojo and can explain things to you easily since you didn't bother to read what was being discussed. You obviously harbour ill feelings for your time spent in the Bujinkan and that is understandable. You misunderstand explanation for theorising and miss the biggest and most undeniable point:

    You could be able to punch okay but that doesn't mean you can do tsuki properly. There isn't any need for theory, it is simple. Try to knock someone down with a punch. Now try it with a staff, sword, chain, etc. If you cannot create an almost identical effect with all of those different tools, then you don't understand tsuki. If you've ever seen a jab, then you have seen the first part of oitsuki. If you have ever seen an attack on the pass, then you have the second strike. If you have ever seen someone attack an opponent's base then you have the third component. It isn't rocket science, but common sense. Think of fighting in armour and knowing that you have to do more than just create surface damage with your attacks.

    Takamatsu sensei might have had issues with his lineage charts but I have never heard of anyone questioning his fighting ability. Based on your comments, you seem to have read a lot of internet attacks in English and bought into them without doing your own research. That is your right but it doesn't really add much to the conversation because you don't even have your basic facts straight.

    Just to recap, a tsuki is not just a punch. If you can't put someone on their backside with any weapon using the same body mechanics, you have no tsuki in your toolbox. Oitsuki is a compound attack. Many don't know this because they were not taught it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is an effective way to negate someone's guard and take them down or trigger a reaction. You obviously weren't taught the techniques of the ryu properly or deeply, so I sympathise with your lack of understanding and negative opinion of the arts. That is why I always tell people to...(you all know the rest).

    I wish you luck in your future martial endeavours but you should educate yourself more before throwing out inaccurate information as you have been doing recently. That is where respect comes in, respecting yourself enough to familiarise yourself with something before preaching about it.
     
  15. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i took roninx's point to be different.

    then you go into the compound attack, and the staff, chain, etc.

    and this is what david intimated, because you've mentioned this many times.

    now a part of roninx's post.

    for me too, this is what happens when the pressure is removed from an art. you end up with a complicated, complex disaster. which once the proverbial stuff hits the fan, and adrenaline and multiple attackers comes into the situation, you're going to pull off a compound three-pronged attack? all on your front-leg and with no balance? and why should an empty-hand attack be just like a staff attack? because of the battlefield in ancient japan? just look at the pictures and videos of hatsumi himself performing the movement--it's a hot mess dude.

    i'm not disagreeing with you that an oitsuki in your art isn't all those things. but you also mentioned "effectiveness" in your post. i just don't buy the effectiveness part. if there truly was pressure in your art, i don't think you would see this attack any longer, except as an historical anecdote.

    if you're going to respond, don't bother if all you have is that you've seen masters in japan who are tough.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  16. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Is grabbing an extended arm and punching really a complicated technique?

    And just playing devil's advocate, but there's a whole load of sophistication in BJJ
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  17. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    when i read the explanation that pr gives, yes, it seems extraordinarily complicated. i'm the only one?
     
  18. RoninX

    RoninX Valued Member

    You're not really telling me anything new. I'm very aware of the fact that pretty much all attacks that exist in the Bujinkan have very similar mechanics, and delivering a tsuki is pretty much the same as delivering an attack with a sword or several other weapons. I was thought that in the Bujinkan the weapons were just an extension of the body. I just don't see what that changes regarding the effectiveness of the move. It's still not a good way too punch.

    My 8 years of training? So now you're just throwing random numbers around? Maybe that's how you guys came up with the whole 900 years old story. You just say a random number and run with it.

    I don't really care how many years you've trained in Japan, to be honest. The idea that being in Japan gives some sort of special ability is nothing but a myth. All my Bujinkan knowledge comes from people who also spent a lot of time in japan and were more than qualified to teach what a tsuki is. So don't flatter yourself. Telling people you know a lot because you were in japan doesn't really give you any special credibility. I know, i know. We're supposed to believe that Japan is where the real ninja knowledge is. It's a great idea to promote, from a business standpoint. But at the end of the day, most people i knew that spent any significant time in japan were just as out of shape as those who didn't. And last time i saw a guy who lived in Japan actually testing his skills he was being tossed around like a ragdoll by a BJJ brown belt on the History Channel.

    Now, you say "Takamatsu sensei might have had issues with his lineage charts but I have never heard of anyone questioning his fighting ability."

    First off all, i didn't question his fighting ability. Second, who could have questioned his fighting ability? Who do you know that had any sort of interaction with him, besides Hatsumi and the Japanese Shihan? And who do you know, outside of the Bujinkan, that had the opportunity of seeing first hand his fighting ability? All you have are stories, most told by Hatsumi. Do have any evidence outside the X-Kan that the man could even throw a proper punch? Yeah, he trained in classical martial arts, but that doesn't make him a good fighter by default. For someone who tells me to get my facts straight, you don't really seem to have any significant fact to back you up. All i'm pointing out is the lack of evidence regarding almost everything associated with him. If i truly were so uneducated you would have no problem proving me wrong, rather than simply stating that i'm wrong.

    And don't get so passive aggressive. I noticed that you substitute proper factual informational for empty personal remarks. You can't really prove me wrong in any convincing way, so you simply state that i'm wrong and that i don't have enough training, which is a pretty old and common BJK technique. Let me remind you that you're training a system that completely lacks any sort of evidence of authenticity and efficiency, and is seen as a joke by most of the MA community. If you wanna validate anything BJK related you will need a lot more than what you've been doing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  19. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Well we ninjers like to complicate things on MAP for sure, but do you feel that the clips I put up on punching are really so intricate as to render them a complex disaster?
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  20. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    dunc: i love your posts, we all love your posts. i wasn't talking about your posts. :)

    and yes, you're right, there are many levels and sophistication to say bjj. i'm not saying that there isn't sophistication in ninjutsu. i just hear words, words, words though.

    pedantic and punctilious. that would be my criticism of some peoples' posts.
     
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