A hypothetical!

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Rebo Paing, Sep 21, 2006.

  1. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Let's say you're a bouncer of an establishment who is at this moment in the carpark with a bunch of bikies at various stages of inebriation.
    One ape in particular doesn't like the way you broke up a previous potential fight of his (it got to the shoving stage), he feels he's lost face and he's going to have a go at you to show his mates he's a man.
    But as usual in the male species of the animal kingdom, he feels the need to work himself up by doing the chest thumping and the swearing thing and poking you in the chest :rolleyes: (Actually I've met women who do the same thing ... hehe).

    What would you do in this scenario?

    (You have a few other of your team in carpark with you ... ratio about 4 : 1.
    Police are on the way but they could take up to an hour to get 2 your location.

    The edit ... The ratio is 4 : 1 ... about 16 of them and 4 of yours.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2006
  2. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    well if the ratio is 4:1 in your favor, theres no reason you can't keep a conflict from kicking off til the cops arrive, or if it comes to it, subdue him gently.
  3. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Nope ... ratio in bikie favour ...

    Need some detail ;)

    How would you ...
    and how would you ...
  4. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Firstly if there are 16 of them and only 4 of you obviously you’re not going to fight with them, this is not a Nintendo computer game and you will get your ass kicked. Plus they could have knives.

    Secondly if they really want to kick your ass there is nothing you can do to stop it, no matter how good of a talker you are.

    Therefore if a fight is imminent best you could do is to run off with your tail between your legs.

    But if you are Ninja master level ten….then maybe you have a chance to stay and fight ;)

    BTW I am now ninja master level 14 with black cross and gold balls :D
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2006
  5. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Well make sure you keep those balls nice and polished.
  6. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    i find there are ways of being unthreatening to the point of almost submission, body language, tone and eye contact are vital. i'm no expert but in toning those things down it isn't too hard to be non-threatening.

    well, given the number of people, it wouldn't be unheard to simply restrain him.
  7. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    Tek, you're missing the point. There are 16 of him and HIS BUDDIES. And 4 of you. That's 4 drunk bikers who think a clean fight is watching 2 girls wrestle in jello, for each of you. Your butt is going to be handed to you on a platter. With a broken bottle served as a side dish.

    If there was anyway of avoiding the confrontation in the parking lot until said police arrived, that would be my first choice.
    Second choice, would be to attempt to diffuse the situation by agreeing with the person who lost face, that yes, maybe I did do a stupid thing stopping him form stomping some poor joe's face, however, I was jsut trying to do my job and surely he understands. Keeping my body and voice and non-threatening as possible at all times. Lower my tone of voice (and volume) keep hands in a "I surrender" posture. And get ready to run. Very fast and far.

    When finally knocked down, do my best to guard my delicate parts until the police show up with the paramedics. I'll need them.
  8. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    ok, i thought he'd switched the numbers in our favor, you're absolutely right if i had the numbers mixed.
  9. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    In Australia, the recommendation from licencing board for crowd control ratios is 2 crowd controllers for the first 50, and 1 per 100 after that.

    Remember that if you run away, you're not going to be working at that establishment again ... probably not ever again anywhere ... your reputation would be shot :eek: .

    So OK Brad you're on the right track ... who else would you talk to ... realise that you might have to restrain the guy ... what do you think the rest of the team is doing now ...

    BTW bikies gangs I know about tend to keep a fairly low profile in public because they don't want the bad publicity. They already have an image problem with the law ... generally they keep their wars out of the public gaze.
    It's probably different in the States.

    OK going bush for a while guys.

    Ciao and salam.
  10. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    I think this would also be true if it kicked off with that ratio against you...

    Even if one of the guys managed to kick the asses of his 4 assigned guys, if any of the other 3 got beaten to a pulp, you now have an additional 4 who are free and looking for the remaining ones to continue pounding on...

    But that's the nature of the job!
  11. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Hypothetically Speaking

    I think your scenario is interesting, but unlikely. Where are you going to be in a public bar/parking lot that it will take the police an hour to get to?

    How long did it take the patrons to get there?

    If you are that far away from police help, I would assume that, as a martial artist with any sense of strategy and tactics, you would have provided yourself with weapons because you would know that, come trouble, you'd be on your own. Whip out your shotguns, swords, crossbows, whatever, and and then ask the bikers to move along, you aren't the droids they are looking for ...

    Now, of course, you can say, "But what if they are armed, too?" and this turns into a classic what-would-you-do-if-I-did-this? question, and every answer you provide gets a "Yes, but then what if I did this?"

    Todd tells a funny story about his first silat teacher. Somebody started down this what-if road, and the teacher allowed as how he would use this knife he had. But what if I took the knife away from you? Well, then, he said, producing a second blade, I'd use this knife. But what if I took that one away from you? Well, then, there's this third knife ...

    If you can take the third knife away from me barehanded then I'm in trouble, because you are a master fighter and I'm doomed.

    For me, the proper response for "Oh, you're a silat guy, eh? What would you do if I did this?" is "I don't really know. Do it, and let's find out, hey?"

  12. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Alas, Steve forgot the punch line.

    When the guy said "Well, what if I [took away the third knife]?"

    My friend looked at him like he was a little slow and answered "Well, then, I'd figure you was serious and I'd just haveta shoot ya'," in his best redneck drawl.
  13. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    A suggestion

    There is actually a scientifically accepted technical term for this particular situation, and it was developed at Cambridge University:

    HAUL ASS!!

    There are some fights that are unwinnable, no matter WHO comes out on top. Especially if you are a bouncer. I have lots of friends who were in the business, and I can tell you that $4.25 an hour + free beer is not remotely worth "taking one for the team". Unless it's a S.E.A.L. team.

    Remember, there's no shame in the ability to chew solid food well into your later years.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2006
  14. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    This type of scenario happens all the time here, bikie, footballers, locals. The police response time here is good if within 1/2 hour. :D Often we get through the incident and call 000 (your equivalent to 911) to tell them to cancel the call.
    So maybe unlikely from where u are, but every place is different it seems ;) .

    The incident happened in the carpark ... Over here, the carpark is still the responsibility of the establishment.

    No weapons ... and we're NOT martial artists. We are security officers doing crowd control.

    MA types are a pain in the ass when working in the real world IMO :D
    None of the guys I work with a MA types ... but that's not an impediment for them ... hehe.

    MA "types" often think in terms of their MA. When you're working as a bouncer you have to think in terms of what do you have to do right now to get the job done properly.
  15. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Can of Worms

    Then, pray tell, why are you logged into this group again? Last time I looked, serious silat players consider what they do to be a martial art.

    Sixteen bikers in the car park against you and three buddies is not a bouncing situation, it's a you-are-gonna-get-your-butt-whipped situation if you stand and deliver. You might be able to take care of your four, but if your buddies can only do one or two each, then your odds just got way worse. They finish your pals and then come to play with you ...

    If you are trained and skilled in a martial art that has practical applications, then of course that's what you use when push comes to shove. Why would you do anything else? And if the art is worth the sweat you put into it, then it better have a solution to what you "need to do right now to get the job done properly."

    If you've been training for years, practicing against multiple opponents, and have some idea of what might work, then you still might get your backside kicked, but some idea of what to do also might, you know, help prevent that.

    If you've been running the odd drunk out of a bar, either one-on-one or with the help of a buddy, you ain't the tools to dance with a quartet from doing that. Especially if they know anything.

    Outnumbered, the smart thing to do is engage in a strategic retreat. I think Bobbe said it best. Otherwise, you are apt to find yourself pushing up the daisies.
  16. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    This is what I had in mind ...

    What is tactics and what is strategy?
    Your tactical situation pertains to your immediate environment. Tactics applies to what you need to do now in order to achieve your short term goal.
    Strategy is more long term in nature and relates to how you fix your compass towards achieve an over-arching goal. At least that was how we practiced it.
    The situation as described is not far fetched as some would like to think it is. The scenario has happened, however the progression of events will be influenced by the milieu and culture in which we live, hence the hypothetical. Where I live guns and knives are unlikely in the situation I've described. Judging from the responses I presume that in the States the situation would be different, so I understand why the responses are somewhat different.
    Going back to goals ... in the situation I described the primary goal is to keep the situation calm and not escalate. Secondary goals would be to have the bikies move on in as amicable condition as possible with everybody in one piece. Your goals will provide the boundaries for your actions.
    Now if I am in that situation and I'm thinking from a silat or MA perspective ... bubarlah! Might as well forget it and accept that there is going to be a fist-fest or run away as has been said. I would not want to work with anyone who is applying the thinking process of silat action and reaction at this stage. I want the people I'm working with to be committed and focused on the tactics required to achieve the primary goal with a view to achieving the long term strategy of an establishment with a reputation for dealing with incidents expeditiously and fairly, that way everyone stays happy in the long run.
    Ok-lah lets look at what the the bikie who is the focus of the ruckus ... he's still wanting to talk ... he wants your attention, he's poking you in the chest so he wants to communicate man, there is opportunity there to click ;). Everyone in the car-park knows that if they want to drink here again he has limits as well as does the rest. He also knows that for the short term satisfaction of causing mayhem ... in a small town like mine it won't take long before he'll be hauled to court and into jail for assault and failing to leave which means also trespass etc. etc. The fact that he is showing "intent" is conveniently ignored for the time being to allow a window for opportunity ... it's a gift, just got to get the dominant ones in the group to recognize it!
    Now what are the other bikers doing? Can you spot a dominant character who might be able to form a bridge to let the aggressive guy off without losing face? The key to everything here is not how well you fight multiple opponents, but in how well you are able to access the situation and to empathize with the group as well as to communicate that your position in this situation is not negotiable ... they must leave calmly, and we'd love to see you all here again next time etc.
    What are your team doing ... hopefully they are also looking for the pecking order and connecting with these individuals on the need for reasonableness and getting the communication to include more people ... so that the irritating guy can begin to withdraw intact. If the irritating guy IS the dominant guy, then look to see if there are guys who are his "minders" who can help ease the tension.
    Finally, I want the people to feel that even as I am being entirely calm and reasonable ... that if the situation does escalate, the guy who is poking my chest is going to be dead ... and that is my contingency goal if the primary goal fails.
    The most effective weapon you have is how to harness your intention and to project it. It is not the number of jurus you know or how well you perform a langkah. Silat is part of my life, but is only another tool that I have for me to use and as such its function is limited to a fairly narrow subset of my experience. I learn a lot from other sources as well and have many other useful tools, even pertaining to hurting people ... hehe.
    My reference to an MA type is the sort of person who reduces all things through the window of his MA philosophy which is limiting in quite a number of situations ... and I've known a few of those as well in my time :).


    P.S. Wah, bouncers don't get paid much in the US!! But then, over here we don't get free beer either!.
  17. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Hypothetically Speaking

    For me, strategy is a way of thinking about what you want to accomplish.

    Tactics are the tools you use to get there.

    Part of strategy might indeed be to conjure up a hypothetical situation such as you have imagined, then to consider which tactics that would work best. Okay. Here, your tactics seem to be "talk it down."

    Which is fine as far as it goes -- going up against really bad odds is generally not the best idea. I doubt that anybody here thinks otherwise.

    When you come to a martials arts group and say that talking in this situation would be better than fighting, you are preaching to the choir. And being disingenuous -- you could ask any passerby on the street the same question and likely get the same answer.

    Four drunken bikers hassle you in a carpark, what do you do? Talk, run, fight, crap and go blind ...

    The unspoken, but implied, question in your set-up is, What if talking the dude down doesn't work? And since that is a real possibility, given the actors you provide -- why bikers and not college students? -- then pretending that the martial arts aspect isn't necessary is something of a shuck, isn't it?

    If the only strategy and tactics available to a martial artist are limited to fighting, then, yes, you have point: If the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail. You have no option but to go all Bruce Lee and lay waste to them, whoo-ahh!

    But to assume that the only tool we have is a hammer is a mistake. That a martial artist will start punching at the drop of a hat is, in my experience, simply wrong. A man (or woman) who is pretty sure s/he can beat the snot out of you is very often much less likely to do so, because there is nothing to prove. If I know I can wipe up the floor with you -- or believe that I can -- then my manhood is secure if you dance about and call me names.

    If I know how hard it is to deal with one besotted biker, then sixteen won't be more appealing. That person is a martial artist doesn't mean his IQ drops so that he can't recognize danger when he sees it.

    And so far, the responses you have gotten have been mostly to avoid fighting, or if pressed to that, to utilize better tactics, e.g., weapons. But by using a drunken biker and giving him overwhelming back-up odds, you beggar the question of what you are going to do when he decides that he is done talking. Even if your bouncers are all world-class diplomats, you have given them a difficult chore, and if oral discussions fail, then what? That's the real question here, isn't it?

    Where I live, I hear the sound of hoofbeats, I don't immediately look for zebras ...
  18. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Well guys, having done security at a few biker events, and being something of an ex-biker myself, I can tell you what I would do.

    But......First of all, there was hardly any trouble at any of these events.

    Secondly, biker gangs are usually 'self policing' and scores are always settled off camera.

    So, I'd avoid any contact with the guy who is kicking off and ask his mates to calm him down. They will be much more likely to calm him down than any bouncer. They are also probably embarrased by the spectacle he is making of himself.

    The situation is also very unlikely to turn into a 16 bikers v 4 security situation. All 16 are not going to turn on the security just because one of them has lost face.

    It is an example of primate display, gorillas, chimps and humans all do it.
  19. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    The Sermon of the day.
    As in a war, there is strength in numbers. In war, numbers play an obvious advantage. Better to have reinforcement than not. Better to strike an awe in your enemy than not. Better to have flanking ability than not. Better to inspire confidence in each one of your warriors through the presence of brother warrior.
    So to in civilian life. In the situation that Mas Krisno mention, this rule apply.
    The presence of numerous professional bouncer are critically important, preferably your side, delivers compeling message of superiority to the would be trouble maker. It demonstrates unequavically that you take the matter seriously.
    When your strenght in number not sufficiently available, then you have to reevaluate your objective, regroup and follow this SOP.
    1. Deliver your message to the would be troublemaker. However, we must remember that people are conditioned to suspect complicated messages. If you cannot explain or instruct in a simple statement, the listener will suspect that either you yourself do not understand what it is you are saying or that you are saying something you know to be false. Neither outcome is welcome.
    2. It is easier to preserve than to fix. It is easier to avoid a NO than to reverse one once it is given. Listen pay close attention to body language, sounds, tone of voice, direction of the head, eyes. If you do, you will spot a no coming from a far. When you do, avoid it, Promptly change the question, alter the landscape of the conversation so that the NO is no longer required. Do not persist in face of a certain NO expecting to contest it. Avoid it entirely and regroup to refashion your strategy. Remember you are out number...
    3. Act as though you are that which you wish to be. Most people will accept a fictious assertion, reasonably-yet forcefully-made, even if it flies in the face of something they know. Even when the facts are in plain sight.
    4. Last but not least. To attempt success in face of the odds is to act irrationally. To persist in the face of a dounting challenge is irrational. But rationally its merely a term to define the majority's sensibilities. It is not an objective measurement of sanity or probability of success. At this time, your are in a "blood and guts" situation. To stay the course meaning that you have to maintain control through violence means. Regroup with your associates, envison the cost and effect. The number one rule on this is, "the end of a task is in its a foretought. If you cannot envision the end of your journey, your success is in the hand of fate. This rule does not mean that strategies never get old, grow stale, or die. Rather, simply means that you should begin each task with a plan for its completion. Because if opportunities do not arise and good fortune does not shine, you have direction that will evantually get you toward your goal. Staying alive......
    I have follow this rule as a Spec Ops, PC, Bouncers, Security details for USSD. With a Grace of God, to this day I'm alive and well. Alhamdullilah.
    Or I just a lucky guy :)
    Happy Ramadan!
  20. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Don't know if I'm reading this wrong, but only one guy is shouting and getting aggressive.

    I take it, the other 15 are not kicking off....yet!

    Furthermore, this one guy already knows that the bouncer has managed to control him in the past. He is therefore aware that if he is actually going to instigate some kind of physical attack, he needs backup from his mates-quite a few of them.

    So for me the crux of the situation is to prevent escalation.

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