A fist is more powerful than a impact weapon strike. What is going on?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by mewtwo55555, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Ah, so I didn't catch that. But that proves my question about how his test was set up was a valid concern.
  2. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Because the test was not accurate in the opinion of pretty much everyone else here. He did not prove that a person can hit harder with a fist with his flawed test.

    Because maybe one doesn't have a knife on hand? One reason I love sticks is they are one of the most practical weapons I can think of for our modern age. One can apply stick fighting techniques with a wide variety of things shaped in a similar way.

    Also because one CAN control how hard one hits and the damage one does with a stick easier than a knife. A knife sliding into someone is pretty much a potentially deadly weapon, even if one tries to do it "softer." It is an automatic escalation to deadly level fighting. A knife/ baton has a wider range of escalation- more than a fist - any weapon is. But one has more control over what can be done with it. A wider variety of techniques. The ability to hit along a spectrum from softer to harder.

    A stick can be used to hit a hand to make another person let go of THEIR weapon. That distance factor is critical over a hand in that scenarios. Also, again easier to hit a hand of a person with a stick than slice it with a dagger, which will usually be shorter than the stick.

    Also, a back fist is one of MANY techniques. And a stick can be targeted to use different parts of it for different strikes and power distribution. We have strikes using a section of the length of it. But we also have targeted strikes with the very tip to consolidate the power even further into one small area - like the temple.

    Also, I agree with others. Please stop hitting trees. It is far riskier to the long term health of your hands than the perceived benefit. And if you think it helps condition you from getting bones broken with a stick, I would respectfully say that is very flawed thinking.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  3. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    I agree guns are some very good weapons. And depending on the situation they beat knives and stick and everything else.

    So you dont practice Iron palm training?

    So carry a knife. Also lets say you need to defend yourself and you have "stick like" things around you. Have you practiced with those? How many times can you hit with them before they break? How much damage can they do versus a purpose built weapon?

    In my mind the fact that a stick is harder to kill with than a knife makes it a worse weapon. Also the same holds true with a gun vs a knife or a stick.

    Have you pressure tested using a stick vs a knife of similar drills? Just because it is theoretical possible does not mean it is likely. I honestly would not want to go up against a knife wielding person with a stick.

    What is wrong with Iron Palm training?
  4. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Forget your ironpalm. Thats a facepalm right there.
    bassai likes this.
  5. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Carrying a knife is just not smart in my opinion. Actually, it is IMO a dumb thing to do. Also, the most likely place I will deal with violence is in my workplace. I cannot carry a knife there and keep my job.

    I practice with a stick and I stick fight/ spar every week. I feel confident I could grab a flashlight or a similar object and apply my training with that. I know targeting, I know how to move my body to generate power. I know defensive moves against swings attempted at me.

    Being a martial artist means having the control do do a wide variety of techniques in a self defense situation. If I can diffuse a situation and have the choice of how much force to apply- I would prefer that choice. If you think "the deadly" is always the best option. Well, you and I have a difference of opinion. A knife escalates a situation to deadly from the get go. One better be pretty darn ready to defend that in a court of law.

    I haven't done stick vs knife in pressure tests, but I have done weapon vs no weapon with both stick and knife. I have done knife vs knife, but not much. And tons of stick fighting. The reality is I don't want to go against someone with a weapon period. But you are assuming the other person has a knife as the only scenario in your side of the discussion. I can think of tons of different situations and that is how I am approaching the conversation.

    Since you asked me, just curious, how much training in a school have you done with stick fighting, knife fighting or stick or knife vs unarmed or vs each other?

    We do some conditioning at my school, mostly in the form of two person sets, wall bag and the wooden dummy, but my Sifu says that a lot of iron palm training breaks down the longevity of your body too much for the relatively little gain and risk of damage to your body. The ratio of gain vs damage just isn't the best way to train.

    Edit: I looked back and saw that you and I and others already had a conversation on Iron training in another thread. You might want to go back and look at your post history.:)
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  6. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    Here's a list of weapons I have carried on my person at one time or another. All concealed and all legal where I live.

    Expandable baton
    4oz can of pepper spray. Not sure what that is in metric but you can google.
    brass knuckles
    2 finger "nuc" keychains
    Monkey fist
    Rock in sock
    Lock on chain
    Curently I carry a glock knife concealed. It is a fixed blade knife with a 6.5 inch blade.

    So I have looked at charts and records and such and the most common weapon used in crime according to the FBI for the most recent year of 2017 was a firearm followed by a knife or edged weapon and then empty hand and other weapons would tie or swap back and forth for the amount of use depending on the crime. If I am most likely to go up against a lethal weapon why would I want to use a less lethal weapon? Do I want to go up against a weapon or even get into a fight no. Hence why I do stuff to avoid fights like the time I talked to a stop sign. Also like I say if I ever use my knife in a self defense situation I a fully prepared to get the electric chair.

    I have done stick vs knife and empty hand vs stick and empty hand vs knife and empty hand vs gun and other variations of these weapons. The way we train is that you wont see the knife till it is being thrust in and out of you. None of this "do an x block to stop the knife" stuff. If someone does a block like that we just turn the practice knife a little and cut their arm. The day job of my sifu is a chef and he has also been a butcher. When we do knife stuff he always talks about how easy a knife will sever an arm or a hand or a leg ect.

    When you do stick vs knife tell me how it goes.

    Here is what I say when we do it. "It does not matter if you break my arms and legs you need to knock me unconscious in order to stop me. Because I will not stop till you are "dead" because I am "crazy" and I believe the only way to stop the government from using satellites to send messages through my sisters braces is to kill you." I am trying to get the people we train with to see how deadly a knife is.

    If I am lucky and live till I am 60 and I dont die tomorrow by being hit with a car I should be proud of my iron palm injuries. I am a martial artist I should be the best martial artist possible. I should research and understand my weapons. The weapons of my body and the weapons I carry. I should find the best ways to carry weapons. If this means buying a jacket that is 2 sizes to big so I can carry a small baseball bat in it conceal then I must do that.
  7. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Excellent. So based on the video and you do Iron Palm training...means you dont need to carry them anymore.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If your interested in self defence, then being ready to get put in jail for murder is a terrible plan, guess what, you will be assaulted and worse in jail, the inmates arnt separated like in kennel.

    Really if your interested in self defence you should really be doing a lot of cardio, (heart attacks and strokes are the leading cause of death over 40).

    Anyway weren't you the WC guy who only trains once a month?
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    No, and neither should you. It's a really bad idea.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  10. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

    good thing I still have 25 more years till I hit 40 I am in my 20's right now. I weight 375 pounds right now. Hopefully if I can get my weight up to 400 pounds my body will turn into a black hole and I will become skinny.

    I do wing chun 1.9275 times a month. Thank you very much.
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Fighting, Combat, Self-Defense and Sports Fighting -- the differences
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    40 - 25 =15

    Are you fifteen years old?

    If you look up your rate of death at that heavy, with your age, you really should start doing cardiovascular exercise, especially as you train so little.
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Maybe start by researching the bones of the hand and physics.

    You won't be proud of your hand injuries when they mean you can't operate a firearm or form a fist.
    aaradia likes this.
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.


    Doesnt train
    Limited understanding of weaponary
    Limited understanding of self defence
    Asks internet for advice. Ignores advice
    Watches internet video. Sticks with video advice.

    Think we're done here really.
  15. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    Train stick
    Stick train

    So what your saying is I should ride a train with a stick ok
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    At least some training would be involved.
    Grond and Dead_pool like this.
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Take care hitting trees...unlike boards sometimes trees hit back.

    Grond, Monkey_Magic and Dead_pool like this.
  18. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I doubt theres some Baukaw level tree hitting going on.
    Grond and Dead_pool like this.
  19. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    I don't know what's going on here, but I watched the 2 videos and my conclusion is the length is making a big difference in the impact. Take any decent boxer, their max force is going to be right at the fist. When you start adding objects, no matter what they can do break or cut, you're really adding length to a strike so it's less impact if it's relatively light, but weight matters. That doesn't even factor in the fact that a knife doesn't need much force to kill you, and a stick doesn't need much density over your own old bones to break them. I must be missing the joke again.

    I'd like to see him using a MUCH weightier object like a bowling ball. That'd be neat.
  20. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    This thread got dissapointing real fast.

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