A fist is more powerful than a impact weapon strike. What is going on?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by mewtwo55555, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    So I saw this video and the guy was able to produce more force with a back-fist that with two types of sticks. A beefy Chinese flute and an Indian weighted club.

    Does anyone know why this is?

    Here is the video.

  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I'd rather get his by his fist than either of those weapons. He also has a flawed perspective of effetive striking. You can't measure efective striking except in volume. The only strike that is effective is the one that lands. Just like the only good defence is the one where you don't get hit.
    bassai likes this.
  3. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    Why would you rather get hit by his fist than one of the weapons if his fist can generate more power? Why can you only measure striking in volume? The test he is doing is not to see how many punches land on a person it is measuring the power of each punch and weapon.
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    His definition of effective striking is flawed. He thinks effective striking is how hard you can hit/how much force you can produce. Effective striking is strikes that land.

    Also, his fist would lose momentum a lot faster than the club or bat. There is less weight on the end and his hand is made of flexible muscle and tendons that swing. The weapons are made of solid wood that won't bend after they've made contact. A piece of wood will carry all its weight through your skull and break it. A fist will hurt but it is less likely to break something.
    David Harrison, bassai and aaradia like this.
  5. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I would like to see several things in his test. One, him actually showing us his back fist alongside his two weapons. He just mentions the results from an earlier test.

    I would like to see others tested doing the same thing and see if he got the same results. If he had a point to make before the test, he could have subconsciously held back striking with the weapons.

    I admit I stopped watching partly through. Did he explain how his testing apparatus worked?

    In short, I doubt his test results are accurate.

    Also, what PIP said. I was still mulling over how to word it...................

    Edit- also this. He doesn't show his waist in the movement. But it seems like he is bouncing the strike back instead of carrying it through fully. Just like in hand strikes, one must carry THROUGH the target with full body movement. (My Sifu was just going over this in detail in his class last Thursday with our CLF Stick/ Flute form. And it is a point stressed in our stick fighting classes.) I am not convinced he is dong this. Maybe he is. Again, his test is flawed IMO by not showing his full body in the strike.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    David Harrison likes this.
  6. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    He is not testing how many strikes he can land he is testing how hard he can hit. This is like measuring how fast a car can drive and then saying that the test is flawed because its not how fast you can drive but how closely you can stay in the lanes on a road and follow the signs. Those are 2 different tests for 2 different experiments.

    What about his body weight? Yes his fist might be lighter but he has all the weight of his body behind it.

    Here is the video showing his backhand. This video was linked in the description of the weapons video.

    Feel free to post a comment on his youtube page I am sure he would love to get other martial artists involved in his projects.

    The device he uses is called a load cell. You can google it to find out how it works and such.

    The least you can do if you comment on a a forum post about a video is watch it all the way through.

    Feel free to ask him to show his entire body in the video. He does have other videos with his full body. I am sure he would love to make better and more videos.
  7. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Please don'tell me I have to watch long drawn out conclusions when he can't edit himself to make it interesting. I watched his actual test and that is what I commented on. :rolleyes:

    Also, a good test doesn't make you do research all over and jump around multiple videos. The information of his test should all be on the same video if done properly. I have seen plenty of other tests that were more clearly explained all in the same video. And, I might add, edited well.

    I am interested in discussion here on MAP. Not interested in more than that. I am simply not interested in commenting on his Youtube channel. Again, it was up to him to show his full body movement for a fair evaluation. Not trying to knock the guy, but you asked what we thought of the video and my honest answer is I found a lot of questions in the methodology of the test.

    There was some TV show that showed martial artists generating power in various ways. I can't remember the name of the show. It always explained their apparatus on the same show as the test. Didn't say "we show you how our machines work on another show." And it showed full body shots of the test as well.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  8. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    So based solely on the fact that he is not the best video editor or might talk a bit to much you are dismissing him?

    Your comparing apples and oranges. A professional tv show is going to be better edited than a guy who is just starting his youtube channel.

    So lets discus then. Why do you think weapons like what he used generate more power than a fist? Will you explain to me why that is?

  9. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Straw man in the first sentence there. I already explained the reasons why I am unconvinced by his test. It wasn't because he talked to long. You are confusing two different things said. Why I doubted his test and why I didn't watch his long discussion on his conclusions are two separate issues.

    PiP already explained it pretty well.

    You really mean to tell me you would rather get hit by a hard stick to the head than a fist?

    Plus, there are additional considerations. As the guy pointed out - range. If I can hit you with my stick before you reach me with your hand, I win.

    Also, if the "weapon" is your hand and gets damaged, you are injured. If the weapon is a stick and gets damaged, you are still healthy.

    If I hit the small bones of your hand with my fist, what do you think the chances are I will break bones? Now, what are the chances I will break the bones of your hand if i hit it with a stick? Think about it. ;)
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  10. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    I agree I would rather take a fist than a stick. That being said I have hit myself in the leg with a police baton and it did very little. Yes range is another consideration and yes weapons don't feel pain or get injured.

    It depends on the hand. Yes a stick will probably break bones easier but if I hit my neighbors hand with my fist I would injure her hand and I might break bones. But I have conditioned my hand and routinely hit trees so my hand tougher than my neighbors hand.
  11. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    You take his back fist to your deltoid. You'll most likely lose a bit of balance and go "oof that hurt. Nice one."

    You take a hammer to the same spot (at his impact levels) and you'll end up with a broken bone.

    Force/Impact/Volume/Density etc is all relative.

    So the specifics to his test is fine. Yes, can have more impact force with his hand, in comparison to other items.
    Thats perfectly fine...but then to compare it to actual damage to a human, is a bit different.
    bassai and David Harrison like this.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    His mechanics are all wonky. His backfist shows him to be super stiff and it looks like he is not used to actually hitting things because his balance is not prepared for impact.

    As aaradia said, you can't see his whole body for the weapon strikes, but you can see that he is bouncing them off the surface of the pad, not burying the weapons into it.

    He only did 5 strikes, and possibly on a different day to his backfists? Not the most scientific of tests. I don't think this tells us much at all.
    aaradia likes this.
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Well there were full on Telly shows doing the exact same thing...and even their tests were wonky at times. Lol

  14. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    So I guess I kind of already answered my question in that a weapon feels no pain and gives you reach etc. But I guess my next question is if a person can hit harder with a fist than with a stick why bother training a stick? why not just use fists and other more effective weapons?
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Again, you got impact factor of what he is hitting. A padded item. Where the generation of said force being spread out.

    So if you want to hurt a pillow. Then crack on using the fist.

    If you want to hurt a human body. A stick or hammer can be more effective as it causes more damage to the body with less use of force plus theres the extra distance.
    aaradia likes this.
  16. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    I punch trees and walls with my hands. A knife is more effective than a stick. If a person can hit hard with a fist or just use a knife why use a stick?
  17. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Whatever you do in the privacy of your home is yours to bear.

    I guess this is cognetive process. Why do you think gang members use weapons? Instead of hitting/threatening people with their own hands?
    bassai likes this.
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    If your hands are still intact then that says more about how hard you punch than how hard your knuckles are.

    What about a sniper rifle? Or a machine gun? Or a tank?
    bassai likes this.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    So immediate red flag went up when he said he was using additional padding so as to 'not damage the load cell'.
    More padding means the force will dissipate easier and transfer less into the sensor itself.
    There are also variables that are very important that weren't considered such as how quickly the force was transferred into the target and over what surface area. The load cell itself might pick up more force if more surface area (such as in a backfist) makes contact rather than a thin line of surface area like you'd get with a stick strike.
    aaradia likes this.
  20. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Stop punching walls and trees, it's not productive training.

    Momentum carries through things. His testing methods were questionable, and at the end of the day a moot point because everyone here knows that it's much worse to be hit with a stick or a bat than a fist.
    aaradia and bassai like this.

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