A different take on the Human Weapon Episode

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by KempoFist, Dec 17, 2007.

  1. llong

    llong Valued Member

    Too much black and white thinking, not enough gray (or grey :) ).
     
  2. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

    QFT
     
  3. gmonky

    gmonky New Member

    Let me give you an example that happened tonight at the bjj dojo I'm training at right now since I just got back about a 1/2 hour ago. Tonight we were practicing some self defense moves and we paired up. The idea was to work off of someone grabbing you from behind and drop down to either do a judo-like throw or reach under and grab the leg for a knee bar. Fairly basic stuff. Of course, this is a bjj class not a bjk class so it's completely different. In that case the UKE's role was to help facilitate the learning of the technique. If they just went all limp and fell over the minute you touched them, it doesn't help you out that much does it? On the other hand, if they resist too much and end up never being able to pull off the technique, that's also useless. It's a balance with a range of characters in between that are largely dependent on character and your UKE's body characteristic. What I find odd is that I have to explain something so obvious? To me an UKE in BJJ and an UKE in BJK are no different. An ass UKE is an ass UKE no matter where they train.

    As for the BJK, all I can say is that you are dealing with people, people come in all shapes, sizes, characters and degrees of experience. That, more than anything, dictates how an UKE behaves in relation to your training.

    Hopefully that gives you some more information.
     
  4. seattletcj

    seattletcj Valued Member

    Performance is performance.
    If its your ability to perform in a self defense scenario, or in a judo competition is irrelevant.

    If you cant perform the skills you are training, in the dojo against an unpredictable, and non-compliant training partner...I think thats the most reasonable way to guage your general ability to physically handle yourself outside the gym/dojo as well.



    Sure.
    This is the "introduction" stage. And I'm sure all martial arts share this common practice.

    BJK or BJJ, ukes job is to lose, during this "introduction" training. The tori may mess up the technique and it may not work.....but uke is compliant to having the technique put on, under the proper circumstances.

    Right?
     
  5. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    I agree.

    And thank you for using the words you did - "unpredictable, and non-compliant" - rather than "resisting".
     
  6. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I do appreciate the explanation and I was asking the question sincerely. To explain why I was asking... yes you are right for the 'learning the technique' part of training a balance between some resistance and some compliance is ideal. However as I understand it there is no part of training designated as 'sparring' in the BJK which means that in training someone is always going to be 'uke'. So I'm wondering how much resistance a person playing an uke can be expected to give. Is a person a good uke if after you've mastered the movement of a technique they constantly were able to prevent you from applying it or is that a bad uke?
     
  7. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer


    IMOOnce your beyond just learning, and you want to move into more freeform training, the uke/tori roles only exist at the beginning of the session. From what I understand, many dojo's do more situational randori than "fight scenario" type sparring.(Two people squared off ahead of time) So, in the learning phase, I think a good uke is someone who responds "realistically" to what's going on. Falling to the ground when nothing's been done to you is not realistic.

    If they're actively trying to prevent you from acheiving your goal, and have one of their own beyond that, it then, IMO, becomes randori and once again, the uke/tori roles dissolve.

    Hope that helps.
    Other thoughts anyone?
     
  8. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    I agree with that.
     
  9. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I see and is randori commonly a big part of training? What marks it as different than sparring? Is there a degree of compliance or is it something else? If anyone has a video to show me that would be most helpful and I appreciate the sensible reply Hayseed.
     
  10. heretic888

    heretic888 Valued Member

    Hi seattletcj,

    Well, I'd like to quote another post, this time by Dale Seago, that I found interesting:

    The feeling that you really "know what you know" is very comforting to many people. So is the idea of standardization or consistency. Both are very popular in modern commercial martial arts -- indeed, I'd say they're necessary for those, as the parties on both ends of the transaction need to be able to define the product which is being paid for.

    Hatsumi sensei has for many years staunchly resisted pleas from Bujinkan members to establish specific measurable criteria for ranks, explaining that such an approach tends to "kill" a real martial art because people tend to focus on what they need to pass a rank test rather than on the essential principles which will allow them to respond freely and appropriately in actual life protection. In the 23 years I've been training I've made the same observation, and I stopped doing any kind of formal rank testing years ago.

    My students of a particular given rank won't have identical proficiency in specific skill sets. They will, however, have comparable sophistication in body movement and understanding of tactics. Others' mileage may vary, but as I've had three students so far who've reached tenth dan and higher I feel okay with this approach.​

    But, then again, I am in no way, shape, or form qualified to teach budo so you should take my opinion with a grain of salt. ;)

    In addition to the Compartmentalization Of Combat syndrome and Just One Thing syndrome that I mentioned in my earlier posts, this is something else that I quite frankly have a problem with concerning these discussions. Namely, the Faux Hierarchy implicit within Thornton's I-Method.

    The danger in this Faux Hierarchy (which is directly related to Just One Thing syndrome), in my opinion, is the tacit assumption of methodological hierarchy whereby supposed "lower" forms of training should be discarded to a significant degree when one reaches "higher" levels of martial ability. I disagree with this approach and its assumptions.

    Randori is not "better" or "higher" than kata training. Their relationship is not hierarchical in nature, as each form of training in Thornton's I-Method actually focuses on different technical and tactical elements. Drilling, for example, teaches things that sparring simply cannot, no matter how much sparring one does. The degree to which one should focus on each form of training varies on what one seeks to get out of training.

    I also feel that the Compartmentalization Of Combat, Just One Thing, and Faux Hierarchy are directly symptomatic of a play-fighting paradigm.

    Laterz.
     
  11. elftengu

    elftengu Banned Banned

    Low graded people can get messed up in a real fight because of a lack of confidence.

    High graded people can get messed up in a real fight because of too much confidence (ego).

    People with too little sparring or 'alive' training can get messed up because they aren't used to resistance, aggression and issues of stamina.

    People with too much sparring or 'alive' training can get messed up because they think there is nothing new for them to face away from the mat.

    People who have had one stand up fisticuffs with a drunken university student think they have experience of a real fight.

    People with scars, lasting injuries or actual disabilites know that fighting isn't at all cool.

    I know a doorman who successfully ejected some people from a club without overdoing things at all and they came back in a car and drove straight at him, crushing him against a wall. He now has only one leg, which doesn't stop him doing most things, but he'd rather still have two.

    Just some friday afternoon thoughts.
     
  12. shadow_ronin

    shadow_ronin Banned Banned

    In the end it's all about balance and harmony ;)
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

     
  14. gmonky

    gmonky New Member

    No.. In the end it's about keeping both of your legs.
     
  15. CandyCaneShinai

    CandyCaneShinai Valued Member

    The Uke does not know what you are trying to do. He may know it because of what the class is working on, but in training, he is not supposed to know. As an uke, you have to just forget what the tori is working on and focus on attacking him with an appropriate level of intensity.
    The uke is not supposed to psychically know how you will respond to his attack and work to prevent it. The uke is attacking you, he is trying to kill you. YOU are the one who is resisting.
    If someone is giving you limp attacks and then working hard to prevent you from practicing your technique then they are not even serving as uke and need to be given another introduction-to-training class. The Uke needs to be working hard on hitting you with his attacks, which is the purpose of training.
    He attacks, you defend.
    I have had this problem myself with people, some of high rank. The first time they do it, just go ahead and do something totally different when they attack the second time. If they complain, that's just too bad.
    There is a big difference between Budo play and just plain playing.
     
  16. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member


    Nice summary. +1
     

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