A different question about forms, kata and patterns

simple. not many people want to get punched in the face. they want an achievement that tells them they're badasses but don't want to bleed for it. and they pay sensei. sensei has to comply.

if a guy wants to punch people in the face and ACCEPTS the fact that the price for that is to get punched in the face himself, he'll probably go to a boxing gym instead of a TMA dojo. ​

 

Hey look, it's the sort of character attack on traditional martial artists that made me sigh "here we go again" when I saw this thread!

And even setting aside the sneering tone, the idea that people do forms because they don't want to spar doesn't even pass the sniff test, because of all the styles and clubs where people do both, whether they be light contact (ITF Taekwondo, WKF karate, etc) or full contact (WT Taekwondo, Kyokushin karate, etc).

It may be true for some individual practitioners that they want to learn forms but never spar--and if some dude enjoys learning and performing kata for their own sake, I have no beef with that (see: contemporary wushu, mainstream taiji-for-health)...but there are tons of people who do kata AND spar.

As a personal example, my two hour practice last night included 15 minutes of forms and one hour of free sparring.

As an extreme example of somebody who trains in forms but isn't afraid of being punched:

 

Or both. I used to train for MMA and do wing chun at the same time. I'd pick up stuff from wing chun and go play with it in sparring. Some things work better in that context than others. Some ended up working better in SD sims.

 

Mitlov, I wanted an intelligent discussion from this thread, not an excuse for character attacks on TMA. Thankfully, many of the replies have been insightful (e.g. Mel’s post about karate).

One reason I started the thread is exemplified by your college taekwondo club, which seems like it gave the right level of emphasis to patterns. Shouldn’t more TMA clubs be like this?

 

Context is always something that should be considered, IMHO. Not everything that works well for one-on-one sparring works well in all other contexts, and vice-versa.

 

Because "martial arts" is not a single entity. Each tradition of martial art, and indeed each individual school within that tradition, will see things a little differently, and therefore will practice a little differently.

What you're actually asking is "why aren't all people the same and why don't they all do things in the same manner?"

 

Of course I implied it. You just quoted me saying it! I think my previous post already explained the other "whys", but basically it comes down to forms-based schools seem to sell more product than competition-based ones. That's my opinion, of course.

You said you disagree preparation is more important than forms for competition? They are equal? Which forms then are important for competition?

 

What do you mean styles that have forms "sell more product"? Do you mean merchandise sales, or wild claims?

I don't think it makes sense to differentiate between competition and forms, because those two aren't two alternatives. You can compete in sparring or spar in a non-competition format. Likewise, with forms, some people learn them in a non-competition context, but others compete. Competition in forms is a division of competition just like sparring competition is a division of competition (this is true in ITF Taekwondo, sport karate, wushu, etc.).

In the last two tournaments I've entered, I've competed in both sparring and forms. I enjoy both; right now I'm more competitive in the latter than the former.

 

Dispensing with form during prep for a fight makes sense to me. However, that assessment is based in my opinion that forms contribute little to fighting ability.

People who believe form has a crucial role in skill acquisition will never agree.

 

I mean that you will buy more time from schools, learning forms, than buying time from schools that don't focus on forms and instead focus on preparing you for competition, like boxing. If you want to really box, you can do it tomorrow and you don't have to wait til you've learned your 10th form.

 

In my experience, I never found any difference in “time bought”. Full contact styles use their time differently than TMA. Full contact sports have a lot of technical drills (pad work, technical sparring, reaction drills, conditioning, etc); cumulatively, these demand a huge amount of time.

And you’ll probably get battered! I wouldn’t underestimate the amount of time required for fight prep.

 

Exactly! but if you're learning a martial art, fight prep is everything. Not a secondary thing. The whole point. The only thing.

Full contact programs don't structure their programs according to time spent learning forms. But many schools do. My point is that forms become a set of content that can be milked for income. That's it.

 

I always found it strange in Kyokushin that although half of the time was spent doing forms there was little to no bunkai and it was seen more as a technical training tool promoting correct structure and form.

The only forms I still retain and practice are the breathing forms i.e. Sanchin/Tensho and a few of my old Jow Gar forms which I maintain just for the beauty of the forms, I personally prefer shadow boxing as a tool over standardised forms.

 

Is it really? Let's step away from karate and forms for a second and ask if "fight prep" is really "the whole point" and "the only thing" for anyone training in martial arts. Let's take boxing. For you, boxing may be just about fight prep, and that's fine, but for a lot of people, that's not the case.

For example, in a recent article, Harper's Bazaar summarized six of boxing's main benefits as "You can switch off from the outside world and be present in the moment," "It’s an excellent form of stress relief and stimulates endorphin production ," "When boxing, you’re never alone, making it a great motivator," " It can help you learn a lot about yourself," "It builds self-confidence as much as physical strength," and "It can help you manage anger and overcome it."

6 ways boxing can benefit your mental health

As another example, a boxing club local to me really stresses how it helps with character-building for at-risk youth.

Spoiler

“Many kids are in trouble with the law, or from domestic violence or drug abuse. Without the right mentor or outlet it’s easy to get sucked into gangs, things that aren’t positive. I want to catch them before that, give them hope, teach them accountability for everything, and to not use the past as a reason for where they’re at right now.”

“You play football and basketball, but you don’t play boxing,” he says, about channeling aggression. “It’s not just punching; it’s personal accountability, with morals and discipline, a vehicle to open a kid’s inner potential to who they really are. If a new kid’s aggressive, I ask do you wanna try some boxing? I can make 30 minutes feel like death because they’re working their bodies like they never have before, but they feel like they’ve really accomplished something.”

Reach One, Help One, Teach One: Boxer Troy Wohosky Builds Athletes with Heart

Like, from a UK boxing coach who talks about how the training routines can help kids with special needs learn confidence and self-esteem:

Spoiler

“I feel better after taking a session with them, but they’ve started taking the sessions themselves now. They do a proper warm up, they work on the heavy bags, they do a circuit, they throw medicine balls and slam balls, they use kettlebells. All of the standard training routines that you’d get in any boxing gym anywhere in the world are there for them to do and they do them.”

Mathews describes how his sessions have transformed a group of disabled and somewhat disadvantaged youths who were lacking in self-esteem and self-confidence into young people who use their disability as an advantage.

“When we started this, I started with a group of people who had not been out of the house for years, people who had never been to the shops on their own, never been on a bus on their own and always had to be chaperoned by helpers. Now, they’re telling their helpers to stay in the house, that they’re going to knock for their mate and then going to the gym.

“It had never been done before, they’d never had the opportunity and we’ve opened that up to them. I just want to give something back and show people that everyone is equal. We cater for everyone and it goes to show that people with disabilities only need to be given a chance.”

Reach One, Help One, Teach One: Boxer Troy Wohosky Builds Athletes with Heart

And the United States Naval Academy teaches all its students boxing--not because fisticuffs has any relevance to 21st-century naval combat (it really doesn't), but because of the lessons boxing teaches about thinking and reacting under pressure.

Spoiler

“We use boxing as an opportunity to create an environment in which midshipmen have to think and react under fire or stress,” the academy’s longtime head boxing coach, Jim McNally, once said. “Boxing allows mids to find out how they react to fear.”

Baltimore Sun - We are currently unavailable in your region

Boxing can be a lot of different things to a lot of different people. For you, it may be all about competitive fight training, but that doesn't mean that's what boxing training is about for everyone who trains in boxing. Frankly, all of this sounds a lot like what Gichin Funakoshi (founder of Shotokan karate) stressed a hundred years ago about karate as character-building activity or a "way" instead of just fight training.

I don't see any problem with someone using boxing training to overcome physical challenges, get fit, etc, even if they don't ever intend on fighting competitively. Why can't the same be true of karate and the like? I didn't sign my eleven-year-old kid who has special needs up for tang soo do because I expect him to become a competitive fighter. I did it because I wanted him to gain fitness, learn coordination, and learn perseverance and determination. If he wants to train to compete in karate tournaments, great, I'm gonna support him. But I don't think his training is wasted or he's missing the whole point of tang soo do if he doesn't end up being laser-focused on competitive sparring. It's incredibly how much martial arts training has helped him in a multitude of ways over the past eighteen months.

Whether or not you like forms, I don't understand this point. Whether a one-hour class includes 15 minutes of forms training, or whether that training time is reallocated to other activities such as additional padwork, doesn't seem to affect the financial bottom line of the school one iota.

 

Forms tend to go hand in hand with gradings which are a great money spinner. To such an extend systems add new forms in to make more money or split forms to extend the grading process and milk students more

Learn the new form show us you know it for your next grading pay us the fee and you get a new belt or sash.

Now of course some arts without forms still grade but forms and grading are linked in a way bag work, pad work isn't

 

If your real problem is rank testing, not forms in and of themselves, why even mention forms? There are styles with neither (boxing). There are styles with forms but no rank testing (taijiquan and a lot of other CMAs). There are styles with no forms, but rank testing (judo). There are those with both where forms are a major part of rank testing (Okinawan and Japanese karate). There are those with both where forms are a minor part of rank testing (Taekwondo, knockdown karate).

There are individual schools where testing is a "great money spinner," but the dynamic you describe was not the case at any of the shotokan, taekwondo, or tang soo do schools I've personally trained at. Testing fees were nominal compared to overall membership/lesson fees, and were used to pay for the cost of the new belt and the additional training-staff time in administering the test. And you most certainly didn't pass just because you paid the fee. Frankly, there's all sorts of things that can be a great money spinner if abused (school uniforms, individual lessons, etc). But the fact that all of those can be abused by a greedy-and-poor-quality coach doesn't mean they're all inherently bad.

 

Belts cost a few pound especially if an instructor buys in a job lot, gradings cost way more than that and since you are grading multiple people at a time the cost of an individual grading costs way more than the average cost of a class so its not about covering the instructors time either

They are money spinners in all organisations it's just the degree of how much you are made to pay.

If you want to advance in any formal art and learn the new form you have to pay to grade that's how it works. It's how it works in tkd, most karate and kung fu schools

 

Yes great point. And Mitlov's post was excellent. I'll try to reframe my point, which is about money. What I guess I'm not doing a good job of exposition on is my point earlier about form-focused schools "moving product". Mitlov asked me to explain. When I say fight prep > everything I mean the purpose of getting what you pay for in terms of ability.

Kata-based ranks where you need to learn a new form each rank just have a different business model than what I think of as full contact martial arts. Kata schools, you pay for content, not ability. You're judged and promoted based on content you learn and can display, not ability in a martial sense. And people will spend 10-20+ years paying to learn the content, or teaching it. You learn all the content in boxing in days, and then spend 10-20+ years if you're lucky exploring it to gain martial skill. In a way you start to practice and take on the many forms of a boxer. And you probably don't spend anywhere near what you would getting a black belt in most dojos, or have to spend nearly as much time gaining access to the best content.

I posted this somewhere back there, but you're right. Boxing has all sorts of forms. Wrestling has forms. The basic concept of movement patterns is really every martial art. I think of kata as just the Japanese word for it, formal sequences. Hell I could probably make one up right now and name it "Grondkata" (I'd look terrible).

I also agree many people want to self-improve in a martial art without upping their actual fight game. There is a massive industry built up to take their money, too. ;D, hence my comment about moving product. There really is a "kata industrial complex" when you think about it. They make mad money selling lists of forms, and and people will stay for 10+ years at those places..

Let me put it this way. I just think you will get more real fighting ability per dollar (pound) focusing on a competition school that defocuses forms and kata, and doesn't advance rank based on knowledge of them.

This is why I think boxing produces high quality fighters. Boxing has no ranks so fight prep is everything you pay for, all those pragmatic exercises and sparring is what you pay for. It's just a gym for fighters. Compare that with the many, many strip mall dojos that sell programs based on kata, kata, and more kata. They're not gyms. It's more like a classroom.

I agree that it depends on a person's individual desires, but that's what I meant about "moving more product". It's like paying for access to training material, rather than physical preparation for actually fighting. I don't consider boxing gyms "moving product" because of their business model. You pay for access to a boxing gym like you would any other gym. In a kata based school, you're paying for knowledge. You might learn 100 kata and never be able to use a martial art to defend yourself. A couple months in a good boxing gym and you'll be able to both attack and defend, at least on your feet.