a conversation with spike d

hello,

at one point spikeD mentioned reading "do androids dream of electric sheep". so, inquired as to whether or not he finished and then asked if he had "read any other cyberpunk type novels". he replied that it didn't seem cyberpunk, but rather, dystopian-future-esque (paraphrased for brevity).

now, in academia and geekdom, there are specific definitions of "cyberpunk" as a genre or as a movement.

just wondering if anyone else ever "got into" cyberpunk and if so, how did you interpret it?

william gibson was once asked why he stopped writing cyberpunk novels. his reply was to the effect of "writing about it was interesting when it was fiction, but take a look around. i'm living in the world i described. it's no longer fun or interesting to write about" (general gist only, not actual quote).

so, what does/did cyberpunk mean to you? how did you see it? how did you interact with it? do you see it in our world today, either technologically or socially?

SOUND OFF MAPPERS!!!

thanks

 

I'm a big fan of William Gibson's work... that pretty much sums it up for me. I tend to like his work the best of the lot of what's out there... though I don't think the lines between cyber-punk and dystopian worlds are all that clearly defined. Toss the word speculative fiction into the mix and all bets are off. The same goes for predictive fiction as well (which is usually how I refer to Gibson's work).

I have some of Neal Stephenson's work (Snowcrash and Cryptonomicon) though I can honestly say that for some odd reason they didn't stick with me at all. Not like Gibson's work. Perhaps because Gibson's work when I first read it was so fresh and such a nice stream of consciousness way of writing in parts that I could really identify with it. I tend to write my own stories like that - not out of personal style... more out of bad habit. Cryptonomicon is a monster of a paperback - could be why I've not gotten through it.

Not cyber-punk per but similar to an extent - Steam-punk I guess it would be is K.W. Jeter's 'Infernal Devices' which carries many of the same themes and crux's only really a different setting or era. I'm actually reading it again at the moment. I kept it kicking around so it must have made the 'read again later' list.

I've also got some Bruce Serling around somehwere... but again.. it didn't make the impression that Gibson or William K. D_ck made on me after their initial read. I can't put my finger on why and I'm struggling to even come up with a title of a book Sterling's done that's on my shelves. Hmmm.

 

Cyberpunk is rapidly becoming a retro movement, or rather splitting into two. On the one hand you've got the type who still follow the William Gibson or Philip K Dick feel and world, with glowing neon, robots and the like. On the other you've got Richard Morgan and Neal Asher types, where it's futuristic 'cyberpunk' from a more modern point of view.

The technology in the retro cyberpunk, and the society, is too close to modern day to be futuristic any more. It'd be similar to Jules Verne during Victorian times, fictional, but in a recognisable world. When it started out it was innovative, new, and portrayed a society which people could only start feeling the edges of. Now it seems fairly obvious (with hindsight).

Personally I love both settings, but then I read a lot of fiction. We're somewhere stuck between the two in real-life, with only a few technological leaps needed to push us into these worlds.

 

It was mostly about music for me.

Someone gave me a tape of Frontline Assembly, Front 242, Clock DVA, Cyberaktif that kind of thing and that was it really. All of a sudden I thought I was a black clad extra in Blade Runner.

A lot of the early stuff really hasn't aged very well though.

Read most of Gibson's stuff but been remiss on exploring the genre further. Suggestions of what to go for would be welcome though.

 

It depends what you enjoy really. I'd recommend Philip K Dick's work, as the godfather/grandfather/father of the cyberpunk movement. Despite the fact that it's rather outdated technology-wise (valve tech) it's got a timeless quality.

For a more modern take I'd recommend something by either Neal Asher or Richard Morgan, both of which have heavy touches of cyberpunk. Morgan's in particular screams punk, while Asher's is crossed more with space opera.

Neal Stephenson is another one, and Snow Crash is about as cyberpunk as they get. His other works have the same flavour but less cyber, more punk.

And finally there's Charles Stross, who's about the closest to modern-day technology you'll get with a cyberpunk feel. His world actually feels like it could pop up tomorrow (and is starting to with more modern advances) but his works aren't necessarily for everyone. He's also done some weirder, more futuristic cyberpunk type works in Accelerando and Glass House, but I prefer his nearer-future works such as Rule 34 and Halting State.

Of course, there are plenty of others as well.

Edit: How could I forget. If you want the cyberpunk feel with an almost fantasy/surrealist edge, look at the work by Michael Marshall Smith. Only Forward, One of Us and Spares all capture the essential dystopian feel, mixed with a strange touch of near-fantasy magic.

 

hello,

snowcrash and cryptonomicon are both good. agreed though, they just didn't resonate the same way william gibson's works did.

personally, always found the cyberpunk movement to be rooted less in the "dystopian future" mindset (though this was a common setting), and more in the conflict between the victorian ideal of "technology as savior" and the dystopian ideal of "technology as enemy".

that is, the fact that the future was dark was never the point. rather, the movement seemed more an examination of what might be leading us there. after learning of william gibson's reasoning for ceasing to write cyberpunk novels, began to think about what he really meant.

so, looked around at the world. and compared what is out there now, with what was "predicted" in the genre.

workgangs.
large transient bands of workers who go where the work is. conditions usually aren't that great. they tended to be portrayed as clannish (often due to geographic origins).

today, look at the oil drilling projects in south dakota, america. masses of workers, living in small cell-like rooms (100 square feet), not permanent housing, no town. just a bunch of people in the middle of nowhere working. given time, this phenomena could indeed become geographical/cultural. in america we already have the phenomena of the migrant worker (usually mexican population base). granted, their conditions are usually marginally better than those in south dakota... but how long will that last?

megacorporations
corporations who don't violate the law. they make the law. privatized armies, using everyone and using everyone UP.

well, read the news. case rested for this point.

transhumanism
artificial body parts used to replace damaged ones, or just replaced..... because someone felt like it. genetic modifications, made-to-order children.

we are beginning to see the onset of cybernetics and of genetic engineering. artificial eyes, or implants (particularly transmitters, information coding, tracking devices). people are choosing the color of their children's hair and eyes, choosing sexual orientations, and even genders, all before birth.

internet
the cyberpunk milieu depicted heavy use of internet to do things that were considered near-magical a couple decades ago. it also depicted different groups forming different cultures and isolating themselves away from "other" cultures.

well, just look around. this is prevalent nearly everywhere. while the internet has brought a historically unprecedented level of global connectivity, it has also brought about an unparalleled ability to divide, divide again and subdivide various people from various others.

just look at any forum for examples of this behavior. look to warcraft to see an example of a culture being born. we will see more of this. LOTS more.

yep. cyberpunk is all around us. the technology of our world is still a little bit behind the fictional one, but the social changes are happening a lot faster than any book predicted.

still, doesn't stop the books from being fun, insightful or entertaining.

slipthejab brings up something interesting.

steampunk!

it seems that may of the same themes from cyberpunk have now found a home in a different era. and steampunk ROCKS!!!!

a favorite example of this genre is the comic book series "tom strong". good stuff!

anyone else?

thanks

 

Slight digression but I wouldn't toss "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" in the same bag as, say, "Neuromancer." The two are quite distinct in terms of style, mood, and setting, and probably get lumped together mostly by virtue of "Blade Runner."

 

There's a lot of different flavours of steampunk however. By some arguments Diamond Age could be considered steampunk as well as/instead of cyberpunk.

There's also Frontier steampunk as in The Doomsday Vault, what you might call 'high' steampupnk as in The Infernal Devices, fantasy steampunk such as George Mann's Newbury and Hobb's Investigations and many others. I sincerely recommend George Mann's work, a good read for any fan of steampunk or Sherlock Holmes.

 

wow!! completely neglected the music in last post!!!!!

cyberpunk 2020 (roleplaying game) induced an interest in listening to things not considered before!!!

for the first time, music held a meaning. rather than something to form cliques (headbangers, cowboys, emos or whatever), it became about listening to things and trying to HEAR expressions of zeitgeist day to day. it became less about finding favorite groups and more about finding a soundtrack for day to day life.

through this search, met many many people that would've been ignored otherwise. went to shows and saw places and things that would have otherwise been ignored. still doing this with music to this day. every day and every event has a sound track.

some days just can't quite be summed up accurately without the combined efforts of wutang clan, whitney houston, wumpscut, wilson pickett, wayne newton and white zombie!!

thanks

 

You know, since we've now had both Steampunk and music mentioned in this thread...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPH1OoTobtk"]Abney Park - Airship Pirate - YouTube[/ame]

 

I think as long as goggles are involved there's a lot of X-punks to choose from.




http://islandofdoctorgeof.co.uk/iodg/

 

I spent my early childhood years locked away in a bedroom in rainsoaked rural England reading what you could loosly define as 'science fiction' in the broadest sense: books such as clockwork orange, doors into summer, fahrenheit 451, 1984 etc. I dabbled in a little Gibson later in my teens. I liked it from what I can remember of it. Certainly loved the aesthetic and the whole nihilism and violence of the world pandered to the needs of the burgeoning adolescent - in all my causeless martyrdom.

I agree that the line between dystopian futures and cyber punk can be easily blurred.

From what little I can remember the cyber punk genre seemed to focus on discourses involving technological advancement and it's sociological/intepersonal impact explicitly, something that isn't always at the heart of other 'sci-fi' literature.

I think generally speaking, that sci-fi has the potential to act as a powerful metaphor for our times and while I agree that the future depicted in the cyber punk novels of the last few decades has grown evermore manifest I don't think that its literary potential as a genre is anymore diminished because of it. I can understand how an author as prolific as Gibson may have become bored of certain perenial themes though.

 

hello,

these guys were awesome. seattle based. are they still together?

thanks

 

Thanks for the recommendations - certainly enough there to keep me updating my Kindle for awhile.

Did you get to see the Steampunk exhibition that was touring last year?

 

Is Whitney to Wumpscut not a little jarring?

 

The Difference Engine by Gibson and Sterling?

 

That wouldn't happen to be "The Difference Engine," would it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Difference_Engine

 

hello,

no. it is not a little jarring.

it is a LOT jarring....

hahahaha!

thanks