7/7 attacks

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by iamraisen, Jul 4, 2006.

  1. iamraisen

    iamraisen Valued Member

    "The attacks were, very simply, about democracy. They were an attempt to impose an answer on this question: will democratically elected governments be able to pursue their policies on the basis of the judgment of their institutions or can their leaders be tempted into ransoming their population when the public is hostage to violence? As al-Zawahiri and al-Zarkawi have openly testified, it is democracy that renders civilians legitimate targets; it is democracy that rejects the demands of a messianic minority; it is democracy that is at stake." Phillip Bobbitt, The Spectator.

    Interesting and timely opinon. thoughts?
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I knew it was gettin' a bit quiet in this forum. :p
    Cheers for this Raizen. :D
     
  3. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    but what is democracy but mob rule ?

    or is democracy a system that allows a minority to elect a tiny minority to rule over the majority who never voted for them.

    western democracy is so outdated and undemocratic it really needs to be brought upto date to make it fit for the 21st Century but it does have one saving grace in that it is better than dictatorship.
     
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    The other saving grace is that it's far better than what Wahhabism would foist on us. Let's not kid ourselves not all interpetations of Islam are the same... much of the extremist nonsense that we see is a very warped version of Islam.

    Democracy, even as bad as it gets is still a far fricken sight better than what they've got in Iranm Saudi Arabia or other countries that are effectively dictatorships run by mullahs that are functioning on a model of society that hasn't left the dark ages in many respects.

    The Taleban is a great example of the decay in Islam. They are busy shoving a foreign brand of Islam down many Afghani's throats. Yeah maybe democracy as we know it in the west is not the answer for many middle eastern countries... but Wahhabism sure as hell leaves a whole lot to be desired.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2006
  5. narcsarge

    narcsarge Masticated Whey

    Democracy is an attempt to provide the citizens of a nation a voice in their government. Dictatorships, Communism, theocracies, all have one fatal flaw. It is that those types of governments attempt to "tell" the population how things will be. The government determines what is good for the population without the input of the citizenry. Granted you can argue that democracy is nothing more then an elite group of people that do the same thing. But we do have the ability to openly protest our leader's decisions and we can remove poor leaders. It is not perfect but I agree with Slip that it is a far better deal then the other options.
     
  6. iamraisen

    iamraisen Valued Member

    can you name one credible alternative that has worked?
     
  7. Saz

    Saz Nerd Admin

    *Gets flame retartendent suit on*

    I remember this topic this time last year. Just getting in before the obvious flamefest starts to say - "Play nice everyone".

    :D
     
  8. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    to hell with you! :rolleyes: :D :)
     
  9. DCombatives

    DCombatives Valued Member

    Well, in a way yes you could say 7/7, 9/11, etc are about democracy and our concept of gov't and civil rights being at odds with the Sha'ria etc. But it's a little more complicated than that. UBL and other Islamist groups are most upset with Western policies toward the Muslim world. They see globalization, foreign investment, cultural exchange, etc as the latest incursion of the Crusades. In their eyes, we are trying to humiliate them, point out their flaws and economic inequality, and continue their exploitation for our own benefit, a benefit with the ultimate aim of destroying Islam itself.

    Their goal is to expel Westerners from all Muslim lands, remove our influence so the artificial 'apostate' gov'ts of false countries created by Western Imperialism fall, and then re-establish the Caliphate uniting the Muslim world and the Umma under one nation. All lands that had at one time been under Muslim control must be returned to Muslim control. They call it Tahrir, which can be translated as 'liberation'. It's interesting for us as Westerners to remember that much of central asia, the Balkans, Spain, and southern France were all controlled by the Caliphate at one time, and by Jihadist doctrine would be targets for the Tahrir.

    Once the Caliphate has been re-established, then the Muslim armies can proceed with the Fatah which translates to 'the opening'. The goal being to expand the dar el Islam (the house of Islam) by opening new lands for conversion to the one true religion. Historically, this has always been done by force.

    In the case of 7/7 or 9/11 it is not so much our democratic ideals as it is the policies of our gov'ts that make the Jihadists view civilians as legitimate targets. Those policies prop up what the consider apostate gov'ts and stand in the way of achieving their goals. Yet they know that by attacking what is generally an apothetic populace, they can get a response from politicians who's power is dependent on that populace remaining apothetic. The train bombings in Spain vindicated their theory because the bombings changed the course of the election and in turn, Spain's policy. Yet simply changing our policies will not make us safe. If the Jihadists are allowed to restore the Caliphate and institute the Wahabist version of the Sha'ria there is no doubt that within a generation the West will have to face a more powerful and unified version of same threat we face today.

    While not untrue, it's overly-simplified to say that democracy is the reason Jihadists wage war on our people. For anyone that wants to study this further, I suggest "Future Jihad" by Walid Phares and "Through our Enemies Eyes" by Michael Scheuer.
     
  10. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    what happens to a democracy that votes for sharia and islamic leadership, as has happened in Palestine and almost happened in Algeria 1992 until the military took over.

    as for Iran I thought Iran was a democracy ?
     
  11. wrydolphin

    wrydolphin Pirates... yaarrrr Supporter

    Iran is a fake democracy, and one that has been known to be a facade for a long while now.

    While I hate to throw in trivia and fact ;) there is no such thing as a modern democracy to my knowledge (indeed, I would be interested to see if anyone can name one- I know I can't). Most "democracies" are actually republics.
     
  12. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    That's a fair point. I'll hazard a guess and say that Switzerland is a democracy - but that's it.
     
  13. Moony

    Moony Angry Womble

    What's the difference between a democracy and a republic?

    Moony
     
  14. DCombatives

    DCombatives Valued Member

    Wow, another product of the failed public school system in America.

    In a democracy, the people vote for everything. All of America would vote for individual laws, policy decisions, etc. In a republic, the people elect representatives who do the voting for us. America is technically a Republic. That's the simplified version.
     
  15. Saz

    Saz Nerd Admin

    Err... Moony went to Cambridge University, and is British. Wrong on both counts :D

    I also get the feeling that was a rhetorical question rather than an serious enquiry.
     
  16. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    Probably - but he was right about the difference between a Democracy and a Republic.

    I reiterate - Switzerland is he only (partial) democracy around. (cf Landsgemeine.)
     
  17. LJoll

    LJoll Valued Member

    I didn't know that untill now. Thanks for pointing that out.
     
  18. wrydolphin

    wrydolphin Pirates... yaarrrr Supporter

    I did a bit of research, not much mind you as getting ice cream for a root beer float took presedence, however, I think you are correct, Johnno. The Swiss may indeed have the only democracy.
     
  19. LJoll

    LJoll Valued Member

    Would you care to elaborate?
     
  20. LJoll

    LJoll Valued Member

    Did she?
     

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