5th Korean HKD Open

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by klaasb, Jul 25, 2011.

  1. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Also - I like this. Can I use it for my Hapkido club tee shirts?
     
  2. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Actually I was being serious. I think if people want to engage in an actual discussion over the merits of a demo, I would like to see what they would offer up from their own art (or themselves) that would illustrate a "good" one.

    Pithy one-liners and high school humor is fine but doesn't really make for a good discussion. I'd rather discuss topics like an adult (and I think everyone's age here is well over puberty) - otherwise it's a waste of time and potential.

    By the way, I think PASmith is from the Shidokan (not Shindokan) - if I remember correctly, they do some great contact sparring (with certain rule restrictions) but I also think they do demos, forms, and such as well. I would honestly love to see what he would rate as a good "demo" compared to the ones presented here.
     
  3. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    yeah, you're right...but like I said, I couldn't resist. Shindokan, Shidokan...hmmm, well that's different then.

    The absurdity of this thread is that it totally degenerated from the the second post, whereas it usually lasts at least a few pages before that happens. The inner high schooler in me just had to pour a little gas on the fire:)
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Just type Shidokan into Youtube. Plenty of vids there.
    However it doesn't seem to be a very demo type of style. Most of the vids are actual fighting vids. That tends to demonstrate the principals of the syle well enough though.
    For example full Shido rules is a round (or two) of knockdown, a round of Thai rules and a round of MMA.
    One principle of Shido being to be a versatile fighter that can apply technique across multiple formats.
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I took a look at some, they look pretty good. Am I right in noting that there are no face punches in the first round? Otherwise, looks like pretty good kickboxing with some logical rules for safety.


    I find this interesting. Do fighters usually train "only" Shidokan or do they cross train in Thai and MMA as well.

    Any vids of you fighting? Have you done a lot of the organized fights? How'd you do as far as win-loss? Did you find the Thai and MMA rules easier to fight under or harder using your own style? Are there any top level MMA fighters with a Shidokan base?


    Sounds pretty cool. At what point does it go from being Shidokan into a type of MMA though? Or is it Karate with some bolt-on Thai and MMA ideas to help people fight under that rule set? How does that transfer to "straight up" Muay Thai or MMA matches?


    Would these videos be representative of Shidokan in areas "outside" of sparring?
    Look at about 1:32 for the self defense portion
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sRIx1E_I-c"]‪Shidokan Atlanta JapanFest 2008 Demonstration‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcZ5zZTVJEU"]‪shidokan kata‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE80aX-4Xe0&feature=related"]‪30th Shidokan Karate Tournament (Kata Winner)‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    Sword demo at tournament [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8z5u4y1q0w"]‪30th Shidokan Karate Tournament (Sword Demo)‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-zRkPltSJA&feature=related"]‪Shidokan Karate Tameshiwara (Concrete Break)‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  6. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Well then I think you might have misinterpreted the tone of my post. Instead of reading indignation read, amused facepalming.

    I think that PAsmith coverd this adequately to be fair. It should aslo be pretty apparant to anyone with half a clue which is why I didn't feel the urge to dive into a detailed critique from post 1.

    My thought process in posting went as follows...

    1) Sweet footage from a HKD open in Korea. This should be a solid example of some HKD skills in action (I've seen some good looking HKD from a school who operates mainly in Korea and Australia).

    2) OH. A bunch of unrealistic, poorly executed techniques against an overly co-operative partner thats a shame.

    3) all three videos!! I was hoping for tournament footage.

    4) God that was dissappointing I wonder what else they did there. Bet the sparring looks sod all like the demos if they even do any at all.

    sure:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhXqnPsBfKU&feature=channel_video_title"]‪Brazilian Jiu Jitsu: What Makes A Purple Belt?‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp8OUcvFY6A"]‪Guerrilla Jiu-JItsu Demo Part 1‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    both these demos illustrate viable techniques that you can find looking exactly as they do here in competition, time and time again. They are executed with sublime technical precision, and require only complience (for the purposes of clear demonstration) from the 'uke' rather than an active participation in making the technique work.

    I feel that the answers to why that video is not a solid demonstration of combative skills are easily attainable. I think it looked sloppy even from the perspective of complient MA demos.

    LOL. I'm not even going to indulge this question too much.

    The phrase 'better person' is an entirely subjective term and is inextricably embroiled with your own ideology, moral codes, human experiences, political opinions, environment, upbringing etc...

    Although I do learn things about myself through training the vast majority of my personal growth comes from other areas of my life.

    Well I talked about my training history on various threads around the site but...

    I'm a BJJ white belt OF POWER under an SBGi/Combat base affiliated gym. If trained BJJ for about 2 years. I have done some freestyle wrestling and Sanda as part of my Kung Fu years ago.

    All my other training I consider almost worthless (including the vast majority of my kung fu). But I've train various sports and TMA's through out my adolescence and early 20's.

    I fail to see how this would have any relevance to any criticism of the demo though and just seems like you are attempting to line up an argument based on appeal to authority rather than actually having to state why you think the demo is solid.

    SO. Why do you think the demo is solid? Or why are the criticisms made by PASmith (which I happen to share) invalid/unwarranted?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  7. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'm by no means a spokesman for Shidokan but I'll attempt to give some answers.

    Yep. First round is modified knockdown so no face punching.

    No idea. It's probably different for different people. There are various people associated with Shidokan (or were) that are MMA fighters. Peter Angerer from Germany and Shonie Carter from the US being fairly noted guys in their time.
    Just by way of example I met my Shidokan instructor as we both attended the same Thai club so cross training is certainly encouraged. Shido in the UK came from people training in Kyokushin so that's obviously a big influence rather than the Thai or grappling side.

    Only vids of me fighting are an old sub grappling comp from back when I did BJJ, a grainy Shidokan grading bout and 2 seconds of me getting soundly KO'd at the BKK's last year. :)
    I got into Shido after competing in TKD so competing's not something I'm really into, or good at. I'm a bit past it TBH.
    Also...Shidokan in the UK is still very small so we don't have the numbers to do full comps. We generally have to enter knockdown comps (which are different rules) or go overseas.
    Also we have more general Shidokan rules for training that doesn't follow the knockdown/Thai/MMA competitive structure.
    That's basically knockdown with limited clinching and groundwork.

    Hard to answer that. I'd not ever describe it as MMA. We do kata, Kihon, belts, gis and such that just aren't part of MMA. What I'd describe it as is Kyokushin karate that has learnt that karate is not the total answer and tried to incorporate good parts from other martial arts. How incorported those things are will tend to vary. Japanese Shido is still very firmly "karate" in flavour from what I can see. While in other parts of the world it may seem more "MMA".
    I dare say you could walk into 20 different Shido dojos and come away with 20 different ideas of what it's like.
    And I think that's both a strength and a bit of a weakness.
     
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    it's this kind of tone that i think is a bit rude. this and your previous comment about hkd killing your family. again, you can state your opinion. that's fine. but to denigrate others...not cool.

    yeah, totally agree with all four points. the demos were very, very disappointing. i'd like to see the sparring, but i doubt that's any better. it would be nice if there was more "combative energy", as pasmith mentioned, to better show off the techniques. but sadly lacking. i was at least looking for good form, and really did not see it.
     
  9. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    also @killa....

    you mention you train with a sbg affiliate? where are you located? i'm going to be in portland in a couple weeks, considering training with matt. i've already called there and found out he's teaching the days i'm there. really, really looking forward to it. sadly, only going to be able to train one day. i'm sure there's going to be a lot of kicking giovanni's ****...
     
  10. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Lucky boy!

    I'm in the UK mate.
     
  11. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Good video. Granted, if I had no other knowledge of BJJ/MAA, it would look very much like a very compliant demonstration of techniques. Yes, they are well done but there is no resistance from the victim. And yes, I know from watching competitions and MMA matches that many of these techniques are used to end matches - so I know they work, but from the video, they are pretty compliant (well done though)

    The second one is a very good demo. I like the speed and precision. The lack of striking could lend a question to how that would change up the attacks (especially the "3-on-1" where everyone waits their turn to attack). The last 3 minutes reverts to a very standard form of I attack you-you comply while I do my technique (roll, fall, shift, don't resist me) - then you attack me form that we see. Granted, they are done with speed and precision and look very good. Do the techniques work against a resisting opponent? I would guess so (because I've seen a few of them in MMA competition) but would question some of the flying neck scissors takedown attacks for the purpose of self defense.



    The original videos posted are very short (what, about 1 or 2 minutes each) and focus on the compliant display of self defense techniques (+ falls and footwork) demonstrated by white belts, color belts, and black belts. Do I think they are "awe-inspiring"? No, but I think they show one element from the HKD games from the perspective of the "common" student level. The clips weren't advertising "ultimate" self defense or tournament/MMA wins, they are just a display to let the students have fun and maybe entice people to come in and train. There is a lot more that goes on in Hapkido than that.

    The videos you posted are good as well. As demos I'd say they are excellent. How well do they represent the average practitioner and what generally goes on in classes? I don't know. How well do they demonstrate the overall purpose of the art? No clue.


    My reason for asking is just to put it out there that all people don't train for the same reason. Some train for fitness, self defense, moral/philosophical insight, or just for fun. It's one thing to slam a demo because it doesn't live up to YOUR expectations, but I think that criticism can be delivered in a constructive manner. Your expectations may not carry any water with the people doing it.



    Your comments here (and on other threads) often come off as sort of a "know-it-all" - you tend to "call a spade a spade" (as you put it) with a certain attitude of superiority. I just wanted to know where you are coming from on your certainty and why you seem to want to foist it on others in what often is a pretty rude way.

    So, it looks like I could look at from two ways.
    One, that you are a 2 year student of BJJ (a white belt OF POWER, not sure what that means) who feels that the majority of your previous training (what, about 10 years worth?) was a waste of time and now feel the urge to spread the "one true word" of the way of training (sort of like a nutrider, I guess the term is) - for which your exuberance can be excused.

    Or, your previous experience wasn't really a waste of time and your learning of material that "doesn't fit you" has guided you to a place and art that does, so you feel you are sharing your experience to other people.

    Regardless, it still seems like that can done in a constructive way.

    I think answered part of this above.
    In short, I don't think these demos are above-average or awesome or anything like that. I think they are a very narrow snapshot of "normal" students of various levels showing off what they do. Like I said, I think the falls and footwork are very good and I like the techniques and locks.

    What would I like to see? I would like to see the sparring footage and I would like to see more freestyle self defense where the students attack each other randomly (much as the second video you posted shows in the last 3 minutes). I imagine this wasn't done at the tournament because the self defense was probably judged from a technical point of view (and resistance would lower the scores on that - I don't agree but if you want to win, you follow the judges). There is no reason however that this can't be done in class (we do).
     
  12. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I'm glad you liked them!

    With regards to the complience of the demos I think the key difference is as I stated in a previous post...

    other than that the actual execution and viability of the techniques are in evidence through decades of competition footage.

    regarding scissor takedowns and flying triangles they might be high risk and a bit flashy but they DO work...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIUWH-tuGGk"]‪Genki Sudo in Westside Tournament‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]


    I'm just saying those videos suck, not that HKD sucks.


    Of course they do, but if something is technically deficient then I'm at liberty to point that out on an MA forum, and ask if there is anything better.


    well what do you expect? I'm the bestest looking, smartestestest, most powerfulest fighter that did ever grace this forum. And the humblest too!!

    I most often attempt express my opinion in an articulate and methodical manner but I don't have the inclination to pander to peoples' sense of pride anymore. If people take offence then they can deal withit like an adult. Me slagging off a video or questioning the validity of a persons style/art/practices is nothing other than that. If they want to take it as a personal insult then so be it that's down to them... obviously that is unless I am directly insulting them.

    If I don't have the energy to engage in a debate I've had 100000 times over then I'll just take the **** like you would if you were sat about in a bar with a group of mates, or not post at all. I don't really care if some people find that rude, because I'm certain that other find it just as funny as I do... and at the end of the day I'm just here to kill time, have a laugh and talk about MA's.

    Yeah that'd be cool

    Honestly I'd settle for a totally complient demo showing more succinct and realistic use of technique featuring appropriate atemi etc and demonstrated with skill. Although I was HOPING for sparring/comp footage when I opened the thread.

    I had my hopes up for something along the lines of gongkwon yusul type stuff... now that looks like some good HKD to me.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to6oZGe0r58"]‪(79)Gongkwon Yusul black belt test (Korea jiu jitsu Hapkido)‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    I just think that those demos were poor and wonder why someone would even bother posting them up.
     
  13. mrmg06

    mrmg06 Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0jLow3y4Ps"]‪(26)surprise standing Arm Bar (Korea jiu jitsu Hapkido)‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    one of my favorites. . . .
     
  14. mrmg06

    mrmg06 Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlkpcatJSfw&feature=player_detailpage"]‪fantastic defence against punchs (Grand Master Kang-jun) Hapkido‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]


    How is this KG?
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah for me there's a world of difference between demonstrating realistic techniques, with some compliance in order to actually demonstrate what it is you are showing, and demonstrating unrealistic techniques with compliance because they'd never work any other way.
     
  16. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    yep that's the org I refered to earlier and posted a BB grading of in my last post. In my opinion it's good looking HKD :)

    There a few things I dislike in those demos but overall it's solid well demonstrated technique that works as advertised IMO :cool:
     
  17. mrmg06

    mrmg06 Valued Member

    They go to the ground a little too much for my taste but other than that, yeah.
     
  18. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    When they spar it looks like knockdown karate with grappling... I'd say it's pretty badass.
     
  19. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    yeah. i've seen videos from this group before and they're great. used to train in hapkido in a similar fashion, but me and friends never got this good. not even close.
     
  20. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    where was that/what org? was that how class was etc or did you guys do this away from class as a group?
     

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