4th Dan

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Jeffkins, Apr 4, 2009.

  1. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    Technical

    8 Taeguk poomse
    Koryo
    Kuemgang
    Taebaek
    Pyongwon

    4/8 Palgwe poomse
    Poomse Peacock
    Creative poomse

    5 one steps
    3 two steps
    1 three step

    Basic movement demonstration

    Sports

    7 Advanced Sparring Drills

    ~14 rounds sparring
    2 rounds 4-on-1 sparring

    Basic sparring skills demonstration

    Self Defence

    4 2nd Dan Self Defences
    4 3rd Dan Self Defences
    4 4th Dan Self Defences

    2 Knife Self Defences

    3 Freestyle Self Defence Scenarios

    Term Self Defence

    Breakfall and Roll demonstration

    Theory

    Poomse meanings
    Taeguk meaning
    Explanation of poomse
    Eight Taekwondo precepts

    Poomse Pyongwon in Korean

    Important dates and events relating to taekwondo

    A 4 page essay on a taekwondo subject

    Other

    7 board breaks

    Stickform

    National or higher competition

    Ran a class for a minimum of a term
    Undergone a teaching evaluation


    This is a preliminary syllabus for grading to 4th Dan under the Kukkiwon. I am trying to make it very hard, keeping in mind a 4th Dan can start to grade people.

    I am wondering if anyone has any good ideas on things to add to this grading.

    I'm already thinking about fitness components, poomse application, brick/tile break and a more in depth look at taekwondo history. Anything else?
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2009
  2. YoungMan68

    YoungMan68 Valued Member

    As I recall, I did Taebaek/Pyongwon, freefought 1-2 rounds, and broke. And one of my judges was GGM Hae Man Park. I think most of what you offer is unnecessary.
     
  3. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    Then what you did was below Kukkiwon minimum requirements...

    And what is necessary in a 4th Dan grading? I think your goals may be slightly different to mine.
     
  4. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Jeffkins,

    Will it be yourself testing for 4th Dan? If so, good luck.

    But...

    I see you are just 17. I personally don't think age is much of a problem provided technical ability and maturity is present, which I'm sure you have. But there will be some users on this forum who might think 17/18 is too young for 4th Dan.

    Thoughts people?
     
  5. YoungMan68

    YoungMan68 Valued Member

    Below Kukkiwon requirements with Hae Man Park present? I think not. My instructor is certified 9th Dan through Kukkiwon. I hardly think he would allow a testing that was below requirements.

    When I was 17 I thought I knew it all too. Don't worry, it'll pass:)

    Yes, 17 is absolutely too young for 4th Dan. You need to be MINIMUM 25 years old to even be considered. A 17 year old 4th Dan I wouldn't even take seriously.
     
  6. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    No I'm not grading to 4th Dan quite yet. That's a bit off.

    Was your grading a formal grading? Because I know they cut corners with the grading sometimes, because they deem you already know certain material, but 2 poomse IS below minimum requirements.

    All I'm saying is that if I tried to test doing what you did, I wouldn't be allowed to grade, because I wouldn't have done enough.
     
  7. Kraen

    Kraen Valued Member

    Just for everyone to see.

    -Kraen
     
  8. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    Exactly.
     
  9. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Well I am not too well versed on KKW testing requirements but please remember that anyone able to test a candidate for a KKW cert can really do whatever she wants to do. Who would know? All that is required is a signature on an application form, plus of course the required fees. Unless the test is done in the KKW, they would have no way of knowing a test was done "by the book". Would they? Of course the same can be said of the ITF or any group that allows remote testings and most of them do to a certain point.
    I have seen many talented 17 year olds, but no 17 year old can possible have the maturity to be a master, never mind a 4th degree. The ITF has master level start at 7th degree. To be a 4th degree with them, which is only an instructor one must be 21.
     
  10. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    Not wanting to get too off topic, but you're wrong.
    Regardless the Kukkiwon requires you to be 21 to be a 4th Dan, so the it doesn't really matter.
     
  11. dortiz

    dortiz Valued Member

    Poom/Dan Minimum Time Required for Promotion Age Limits for Promotion
    Start from Dan Start from Poom
    1st Poom N A N A Less than 15 Years Old
    1st to 2nd Pom 1 year N A 15 ?
    2nd to 3rd Poom 2 year N A 15 ?
    3rd to 4th Poom 3 year N A 18 ?
    1st Dan 15years and above NA
    1st to 2nd Dan 1 year 16years and above 15years and above
    2nd to 3rd Dan 2 year 18years and above 15years and above
    3rd to 4th Dan 3 year 21years and above 18years and above
    4th to 5th Dan 4 year 25years and above 22years and above
    5th to 6th Dan 5 year 30years and above 30years and above
    6th to 7th Dan 6 year 36years and above 36years and above
    7th to 8th Dan 8 year 44years and above 44years and above
    8th to 9th Dan 9 year 53years and above 53years and above
    9th to 10th Dan N A 60years and above 60years and above
    From Kukkiwon site
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2009
  12. dortiz

    dortiz Valued Member

    Requirements from Kukkiwon:
    Article 11 : Specified Subjects of Practical Techniques Applied to the Poom and Dan Promotion Test
    Poom/Dan Appointed Compulsory
    1st Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1 - 7?(1 appointed) Taegeuk 8
    2st Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1 - 8?(1 appointed) Koryo
    3st Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1 - 8 , Koryo?(1 appointed) Keumkang
    4st Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1 - 8 , Koryo, Keumkang?(1 appointed) Taebaek
    5th Dan Taegeuk 1 - 8 , Koryo, Keumkang, Taebaek?(1 appointed) Pyongwon
    6th Dan Taebaek, Pyongwon, Sipjin?(1 appointed) Jitae
    7th Dan Pyongwon, Sipjin, Jitae?(1 appointed) Cheonkwon
    8th Dan Sipjin, Jitae, Cheonkwon (1 appointed) Hansoo
    9th Dan Jitae, Cheonkwon, Hansoo (1 appointed) Illyo
    10th Dan Decided by the Judgement of Technical Committee

    Its all on the site. Youngman is right and he is getting his info from the top directors.

    p.s. there are no stick forms in Taekwondo anyway??
     
  13. dark belt

    dark belt Valued Member

    Full disclosure: I'm fascinated by nearly all discussions of age and martial art rank advancement. I don't have a solid position on the matter. (Which is why I probably enjoy all posts on the subject.)


    About age, here's a thought that often comes to my mind--would anyone say that a candidates is too old to become a 4th Dan? With the very young (i.e. 7, 8, 9ish, etc.), a point of criticism involves their lack of muscle control, strength, etc. The same argument can be made about the old, obese, etc.


    One of the things that draws myself (I'm a 30-something 3rd dan) and my daughter (an almost 7 year old 5th Gup) to Tae Kwon Do is its individual challenge. In a lot of ways, the martial arts embarks you on a test of yourself. Not all 1st Dans are great. (Some aren't even that good.) Perhaps, they have come a long way in their own right, though.


    Now, I'm not a wus who thinks we should stop keeping score in baseball and soccer games. I do believe in rigid standardization, and each grade should require a certain amount of knowledge and mastery of the material. Each step up the food chain should be challenging and attainable.

    All things being equal, I'm not going to say that a 30 year old 3rd Dan is better (or worse) than a 17 year old one. When I was 17, I lived a less taxing life, and it's possible that I was better (in some ways) than I am now. Currently, though, I'm a lot better (in some other ways) than I was when I was 17. The 17 year old me would not do well teaching 6 and 7 year old kids. Now, however, I think I'm pretty good at doing so.


    Rank should mean something uniformly, but it's the person who makes the rank meaningful (not vice versa). There are 9 year old 1st Pooms whom I do not take seriously, and there are 46 year old master instructors whom I do not take seriously.


    Keep on kicking.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2009
  14. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    Yes it's just a small component from other martial arts we practice, you know, broaden your horizons and all that.

    I was actually thinking that perhaps one requirement could be to demonstrate something learnt from another martial art of the grading student's choice.
     
  15. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    I've been thinking a bit about this matter regarding younger and older people grading, especially of late. There is one man at my club who is progressing through the ranks, he is 77, has a low fitness level and sometimes has problems comprehending some things.

    He will never be able to perform as well as the other students will be able to, but should he be grading.

    I've come to a tentative conclusion, that for his black belt grading, if he does decide to try and be considered for it, that he should be the best he can be. We can't ask for anything more, and frankly there is little point in stopping him for not being able to go beyond that point.
    But then again that's all up to my instructor.

    So essentially, if someone doesn't meet the minimum requirements of our grading, they shouldn't grade unless they have achieved being the best they can be.
     
  16. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    Okay, gotta ask . . . what is your goal with this?
     
  17. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Sorry, but irreespective of the test, I find the notion of a 21 year old 4th dan aka Master in the WTF laughable!! Its just one more way to make our art the laughing stock!

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2009
  18. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    I have mixed feelings on this one. It should be noted that Kano's judo was the system that started the dan/kyu system and TKD followed that model for it's dan/gup system. In judo, Kimura earned a fifth dan at the age of 18. Also, Moo Duk Kwan founder Hwang Kee was established as a 4th dan Kwan Jang Nim (master) at the age of 21. This was the rank given to all the Kwan Jang Nims at the time except Gen. Choi, who was issued an honorary 4th dan as opposed to a legitimate one. This was the level that was felt was appropriate for master level when TKD was established.

    Now, it could be argued that both men were true martial arts prodigies and I would hesitate to argue that point, but regardless no one denied their qualifications at the time and very few would cast much doubt on their worthiness in retrospect (esp. Kimura). Still, nowdays we have kids who have been training since they were 4-5 years old (and in some cases even younger) in an age that we understand how to teach far better and how to work with children at every age far better than anyone had a clue of how to during that era. I would dare say that with the far greater numbers and far better training methods, as well as the continued evolution of the martial arts, that at least some of the kids coming up today are likely both mentally and physically on a higher level than either Kee or Kimura (if we were to take them off their imagined thrones and look at them with an honest gaze) were at that age.

    OTOH, I do strongly oppose the notion of the local McDojo promoting their young star pupil to master level or belt factories like the ATA putting 4th dans on every teen who paid their money and (maybe) came to class long or often enough. Even orgs. like the WTF have FAR too lenient and simple exam requirements (I know because I've been through them). If a dan ranking system is to have any validity, it HAS to be because of practitioners reaching higher standards and should be part of a process of making them grow into it IMO. If the growth process and standards are high enough, then it should eliminate those who lack the physical, mental, and emotional qualifications to earn such rank. And IF a few of the younger people ARE on a high enough level to EARN it, more power to them IMO.

    I should mention that I have been training almost non-stop for over 37 years (some down time for injuries and surgeries) and am at 6th dan. When I was coming up, there were more stringent age restrictions on rank in the orgs./assns. that I have belonged to. I am seeing some exceptional young people earning rank nowdays that was denied to me at that age under the rules at the time. I was winning in both national and international competition when I was young, so part of me is annoyed a bit that they are promoted and I was held back.

    Luckily, I realize that is just my ego and my reactive mind talking and how it was during my day should really not be a limit on what others can or cannot accomplish. I'm still one of the highest ranked master instructors in our assn (our assn. is currently only using up to 7th dan and that is held by our founders) and I am who I am and others are who they are regardless of how many stripes are on our belts. Once again, it's about how the process makes you grow (and hopefully keeps you growing and on track) rather than bragging rights. Each generation should benefit from the ongoing evolution of what has gone on before.
     
  19. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    Well mainly what I meant by that was that I don't want to do the bare minimum to pass like YoungMan68 thinks is the best way to go about it.

    But the answer to you question is slightly larger than one single goal.

    Firstly, I want it to be a proving ground for what skills I think a fourth Dan should have. Not because I am not confident in my skills, but because it is the same as any other qualification, and deserves proper testing.

    Secondly, preparing a syllabus for other to show the skills we believe a fourth Dan should have. To maintain a standard, and have people that are able to conduct gradings, able to uphold those standards with those students, as well as have the skills necessary to teach.

    Thirdly, as an incentive to learn, without the goal of a grading, those that are less disciplined are wont to stagnate with their training and give up entirely. It also helps to boost people's egos. These last 2 are less than laudable, but a product of which we wish to create regardless.
     
  20. Jeffkins

    Jeffkins Sleuth Diplomacy

    I find it confusing that you say that a 21 year old 4th Dan is laudable and makes our art a laughing stock.
    I hardly see the argument for either, let alone both of, what I would think are, contradictory statements.

    Please explain.
     

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