Nice Kutaki Post Charles Daniel had a very nice post (username: LionsRoar) on Kutaki no Mura that people should read. You can find the comment here. It should be the 7th post down. Cheers! -ben
Enough.... If you only knew what Mr. Seago's average day in the office was like, you'd want to put him on a Wheaties box. Sorry but Mr. Sapp just doesn't cut it if you want "reality." I think Mr. Seago deserves more respect than he's getting because he was kind enough to put up a playful thirty seconds with a student who is clearly far outclassed. The fact that Mr. Seago is still with us (and hasn't been killed in the line of duty) attests to his ability. I'm starting to get annoyed with people slagging him. What's the sense in posting a video for people, if people are (1) going to ignore the purpose of the video, (2) make assumptions about the video, and (3) make up a whole bunch of situations that are not on the video?!? Do we really want to start an engorgement exhibition? I haven't seen videos of ANY of the people who are making comments to the negative. For all I know, Sonshu may move like my grandmother on her oxygen tank, and Tengu666 could move like my grandpa chasing her. Sonshu and Tengu666, please post videos of yourselves getting attacked under full speed and with full force. I'm sure I'll have a few comments about them as well. In the end, you will realize that posting a video PROVES NOTHING. Every fight is different. Every battle is different. Sometimes the bad guy gets lucky. Sometimes you do. I hope that you could do what Dale does for a living for as long as he has done it and come out with such a positive attitude toward life!!! Have you seen that man in a kilt? Jeez! He must be happy to be alive to show off those legs!!! Please remember the context of the situation. Don't use it to slag a man who has been around (and I mean AROUND) for longer than his youthful detractors have been alive. Rant off.... -ben
Ok then Ben if your gonna put yourself in the frame you do the same. As for no videos of me thats cos you have not bothered to read any of my threads, look at threads I started or read posts - Under the Judo section there is a video of me fighting in a Sombo comp performing a throw which got me the Silver medal in an art which I only had about 6 lessons. Its in a thread called "Ouch" - feel free to pick holes in it as this was done in a comp against a resisting opponent who is a 3rd dan in Judo and a Sombo instructor. Also I have not said anything negative about Dale and I have been here almost 3 years so get you story straigh first.......... are we clear. You can now post your vids tough guy OR you can drop the attitude and go back to the corner you have just sprang out of. Or add some value to the thread - lastly age is no sign of quality or lack of.
I don't think so. I've heard Hatsumi sensei say many times that he is not trying to teach us to fight like animals, but like human beings. Human beings are tool-users and most commonly fight with weapons. 'Course he is, that's why people use them. You say this as though it's supposed to be a bad thing. The videoclip wasn't intended to represent any sort of "anything goes" conflict. It was all in a spirit of fun on both sides, and part of what Juan wanted was to fill up a full 30 seconds. Had it been someone adopting a truly "anything goes" attitude, it would have been over in less time than it took Juan to hit the ground the first time, and would also probably have been more percussive as well: Like Ben, I love to hit. When it's anything goes, there's more of a chance of being injured if I allow things to be drawn out -- so I won't mess around. I'm ready for "anything goes" right now, in fact, as I sit here typing at work in my business suit & tie: Under my coat where you can't see are a .40 caliber Glock pistol and a couple of spare magazines. Oh yes, and a wee knife.
On a serious note most don't - it does depend where you live, the UK has a small contingent of weapon using loons mostly its fists and feet the same as the USA I guess. Weapons are mostly attacks of opportunity and not pre meditated (for normal people gangs not included). Most attacks are 2 normal jo's wailing on each other not knife, sword or MP5 weilding nutters. Empty handed is the best form of self defence as its the most common form needed then come the weapons.
Tengu- I don't expect you to, like me, thoroughly research a poster before you respond to them. However, had you done a bit of research on me, you probably wouldn't have made your previous statements. I am a complete NOOB to Ninjutsu...but I've studied BJJ, Full Contact Karate (Kyokushin Style), Muay Thai (as much as I could with military shin injuries), Judo, etc... for FAR longer than I've studied Ninjutsu. I was also around in the Corps when MCMAP was breaking the surface, and using full-contact NHB style sparring/grappling was being used in experiments in Marine Corps Martial Arts training facilities. I submitted a Master Sergeant twice with a juji-gatame and RNC during a 30 minute "Bull in the Middle" randori session, and I've been "killed" dozens of times during "knife fights" with lipstick coated, sheathed bayonets. Ninjutsu WAS the boundary I crossed, and I crossed it and survived (so far). Also, I'm Genbukan, so I'm unaware of what this "Bujinkan World" is that I need to get out of. If you want to talk about reality...fine, we'll talk about reality. The reality is that death happens by hostile fire, unleashed by fanatics. I'd have my old Drill Instructor, who volunteered for duty in Iraq, tell you this but he was killed during an insurgent attack last year. The reality is that death happens by stupid mistakes, caused by lack of sleep and poor management. I'd have my friend Cpl. Mendoza tell you this, but he was killed 3 years ago when his LVS was overturned during a convoy in Afghanistan. The REALITY is that when someone shows up to take your life, you had better have more weaponry and faster legs than them. Anything else is simply a preference, and some of us prefer different things. Sonshu- I've followed your posts over the time I've been here, and I respect your opinion. So I'll make an effort to be polite and show you the respect that you obviously felt my original post was lacking. -I feel that you may have missed my point. What I was getting at was that UFC fighters and, by default MMA'ists, were designed and continue to evolve by different standards than Ninjutsu and Ninpo-ka. MMA serves a very different purpose than Ninjutsu, has a very different intention, and attracts different people. MMA is exercised through different mediums, expressed through different media, and espoused by different spokepeople. To compare the tactics of an MMA'ist to a Ninpo-ka by requiring them to be tested within the medium practiced by MMA WILL NOT PRODUCE AN ADEQUATE MEASURE OF ABILITY. I say this not as an insult to real MMA or MMA'ists, but to people who immediately use the "Prove it in the UFC" line as the default attack against the effective use of an art. I understand that you began with taijutsu, then moved on to MMA because you felt taijutsu was lacking something. My scientific wild **** guess is that taijutsu didn't involve enough intense sparring, grappling, and freestyle technique use to satisfy what you were looking for. In response to this need, you filled it with something that had what you were looking for. That worked for you, and I'm glad you went to a system that worked for you. On the other hand, people who study taijutsu are happy with what they do, and don't need to fill these gaps that you felt. Ninpo-ka don't feel the need for MMA training, else they'd be doing MMA. Ninpo-ka don't feel the need to compete NHB, else they would be competing in NHB. This is what I mean by comparing apples and oranges. Ninpo-ka are happy doing what they do, and to put them in parameters with MMA falls in the area of "What they aren't happy doing." I hope that cleared up my original point. May you achieve Satori
See while a fight may start without a weapon in sight. If i was fighting for my life, you can bet your ass i'd pick something up. Its common sense. A brick does more damage than a fist. A stick gives you distance among other things. Fights are dynamic, and when a fight starts things dont just disapear until your standing in a grey room with a light and nothing else. Humans manipulate thier environment, its why we are such a succesfull species. Manipulation of the environment may lead to breaking a chair to get a leg, or grabbing a bottle to use as a weapon.
I don't know what methodology Genbukan have, so sorry, message wasn't targeted to you. Can you tell me the way you train, and how low stances and written katas affect your unarmed combat skills? HOW do you apply them. I'm aware of higher tactical and strategical concepts, but just low level explanation. You don't have to talk ME about reality. Since I live where I live, in last 15 years we had total dictatorship (until 2000), where corruption and gang wars were everyday. Moreover, mafia guys were understood like celebrities - idols. Then, we had 3 wars. And I can tell you, running accoss the brigde which is about to be hit (and you hear planes everywhere) ain't fun at all. Practicing ninjutsu and looking for more profound knowledge and understanding while bombs are falling around you isn't fun either. Being happy that you could die 3 times in one day because of the cluster bombs isn't also fun. To cut long story short, and know damn good what reality is. And respect to you and others who experienced it. I DO train ninjutsu, and this thread is meant to be constructive - I'm looking for the ways to improve my training. I developed the eyes to see whay works and what doesn't, and because of that I have so much complains. Ninjutsu should be complete system which will teach you how to survive in many different situations. (like Krav Maga or Systema do - at least one part). About MMA thing, I think you didn't catch the meaning. IMHO, they (and other reality-based MAs) develop timing, distance and "feeling" on different way. Also, they were introduced in this talk to describe somebody who really resists while attacking - so for better describing. And it was all in context of questioning if working with THAT type of resistance (in some point) is beneficial?
Why am I not surprised? See post #53 by Satori81 on engorgement exhibitions. Um... Did you teleport into that position? There's honestly not enough to view other than you pulled hard as you dropped to your knee. Could you please post the setup leading to that position? The throw is meaningless without the setup.... I stand corrected on this thread. You did not insult Dale. But your contempt for the Bujinkan and its methods permeates ALL of your posts, Sonshu, not just the ones in this thread. I honestly cannot figure out why you come here to post. You don't even train in our art, but seem to find pleasure in coming here to slag Bujinkan training because you couldn't get it to work and have now found "salvation" in other arts. I'm happy for you! You may have been here three years, but I've never seen you post anything other than, "BBT training is unrealistic." or "BBT people can't compete with MMA people." That's it! That's the extent of your contribution to the Ninjutsu corner, all 3,404 posts! LOL! I did. I want to see people STOP making a 30-second plaything into more than what it is. I want to see people who are criticizing Dale do what he does for a living and come out of it with such a good humor about you. I want to see a FULL video of you (and Tengu666) getting attacked FOR REAL AGAINST A FULL SPEED, FULL POWER ATTACKER. I haven't seen this. -ben
Oww you've mentioned the "S" word er as far as I knew, with mylimited understanding of the art, it is a complete System???? Can you please explain what you mean by "like Krav Maga or Systema do - at least one part)" I'm lost as to what you mean by at least one part????
I see where this is going. No point, and definitely not a constructive talk. Let's put down the barriers. Motivation of starting this post: realized the many Bujinkan people (including me) can't execute techinque a-la-Bujinkan style in a fight. I can apply principles behind katas, but technical things (like stance) are not the same. Now, I'm asking, am I doin't something wrong, and if I do, what would that be. I just want to create a bridge over the gap between theoretical and practical knowledge. (ok, I my eyes there is a gap). I'm aware I don't know many things, but I'm also confident about how some things work. So telling me against that - I wouldn't belive you; for everything else - I'm open to learn. Also, If I knew there are not people who can answer me, why would I bother on this forum? So, could you answer my previous question: How would you apply ichimonji kata in a fight (I know it sounds stupid, but I have a purpose)? Would you use low stance and backward ichimonji/forward step or not. If you woudn't use it like in kata, why don't you train like that? If you would, please describe me - a would really want to know how, since nobody gave an answer to this - maybe I'm missing something. Be constructive, don't judge. Otherwise, I won't bug you on this tread any more.
Sorry, bad english. I wanted to tell these MAs cover all aspect of fighting, but maybe not espionage, buryaku, etc. You know what I mean - I have great respect for this arts too, but didn't want that somebody argue about the comparisson.
Tengu, -You'll notice that I never once questioned your grasp of "reality". I took the time to see where you're located, and check your profile for experience. As such, an explanation about your experience is unnecessary and only serves to pit both of us in a contest of "whose dong is bigger". We're better than that. It was this quote that even prompted me to add any of my previous experience. Addressed to me, with my post quoted word for word, this statement obviously refers to me and my grasp of reality. As such, I outlined my experience and the lessons leading up to my training in Ninpo to provide a background for my opinion. As you can see, I feel slightly offended when I'm labeled as someone "Living in a fake world, unwilling to cross boundaries, and unwilling to face true reality". I hope my post allayed your concerns about such misconceptions about me. Now you know this isn't true, else my above paragraph would have been completely invalidated. Agreed, and I still think the thread is constructive. I'm simply trying to de-construct this post. And this post. And this post. Now, in response to this post: I am FAR to inexperienced in Ninpo to adequately answer for the style. However, we each study because we have faith in the system and in our instructors, whoever/whatever it/they may be. During one Ninpo training session, I was paired with a ni-kyu level partner. He was practicing an escape from a Rear Naked Choke while I had attained a back mount. The techniques were practiced "friendly" until my instructor walked over and said, "Full Speed. Make him escape." Of course, I'm the only one there with BJJ experience. So, I toss him from Kumi-Uchi full speed, position myself for a rear mount, and he allows me to apply the RNC. However, my ego set in and I fell into BJJ technique. I sank my hooks, bridged, maintained a full-body connection, timed my breathing, and slowly applied pressure. He couldn't escape. After he tapped, he asked, "How would you get out of that?" Again, my ego set in and I immediately ripped into my answer. I went over several BJJ ankle break techniques (from the simple pulling knee dislocation to the crossed "lever" dislocation applied with your own legs) and turtling, to the military "elbow the shins" tactic, to a Kenpo "eye gouge lever the elbow for a break" technique. My sensei finally stopped us, and simply said, "We are doing Ninpo, not BJJ, Krav Maga, or Kenpo. Please continue training." He was right. There is a time and place for everything, and that wasn't the time or place for what I was doing. By attempting to alter the way things are done and make Ninpo more like another art, I'm basically saying that Hatsumi sensei, Tanemura sensei, and my own sensei aren't training correctly. Just my take on why things are done the way they are done and how I cope with ideas I don't agree with. May you achieve Satori
I am being constructive. Please provide us with a video of you being attacked at full speed and with full power. You are the one who said "video could help" so please provide us with a video of what you are talking about.... I can already see what Dale is doing. You are the one who said and Please show us what "reality is" if what Dale is doing is NOT reality. Please. -ben
No i think you missed the point. If you end up fighting a UFC fighter whether you do ninjitsu, MMA or knitting isn't going to be worth a damn because they dedicate their lives to fighting. The type of person you'll end up having to defend yourself against isn't at the same level as a UFC fighter, so using this as a qualifier for a good martial art just won't work.
Dale - As someone who is interested in all aspects of Martial Arts I found the clip interesting and enjoyable, thanks for posting it. (I also enjoy watching UFC despite being a traditional kung fu practitioner - shock, horror !!). It's a shame that it somehow still managed to create yet another MMA is better than TMA/my art is better than your art type thread. cheers CCM
I wasn't trying to be critical of the video. I think it was an impressive display of Mr. Seago's ability to control the opponent and diffuse potential conflicts. I was merely responding to the people who chimed in with "well, try using your MMA against my sword" comments. I didn't mean that training with weapons is irrelevant to MA training. I think they are highly beneficial not only in teaching you to become versatile at manipulating a wide variety of objects that might be present in a real conflict for you to make use of, but they can also aid in teaching body mechanics in empty-handed forms as well. I was just saying that the point about weapons was not relevant to THIS discussion because it was a discussion of a video clip of how Mr. Seago handled an unarmed attack while he himself was unarmed. If we're going to go into to the relative effectiveness of different weapons/weapon styles then that would be a whole new video clip and a new thread. Also, it's precisily because the UFC people train so hard that I was saying the ability to diffuse or redirect one of their attacks would be far more impressive. I think the people criticizing the video were not criticizing in any way the way Dale handled the situation but rather because his opponent seemed so incompetent that controlling him wasn't very impressive. I know you're not likely to encounter a UFC-level fighter in a bar-room brawl, but I think as martial artists we should train to be prepared for a conflict with someone bigger and stronger than us and possibly with some combat training of their own (and possibly on PCP), i.e. the worst-case scenario. Again, I'm not criticizing the video. It was supposed to demonstrate the Ninpo-ka's ability to control space and I think it did that well. I would like to see more clips and in different situations if Mr. Seago has them.
First of all, maybe you can see some Bujinkan-specific things more clear than me even when uke is complying. But, for me, in order to see that same thing, I need to see the same thing but with another uke (who gives resistance). So, I am not declining Dale's skills, but uke's. Second, this is not about my skill, or who is the strongest or the best. Do not use comparative, win-lose paradigm in this discussion. If you can explain me some things, and I can comprehend them, we both win. So, instead of shooting on each other, I ask you to step on the same side. What I ask here is help - to understand things I think "smell bad". If I can't get help, I won't be here anymore. You need to understand this. Really don't have to prove myself to anyone here, since I won't pass my knowledge to anyone here. On the other hand, since I'm sceptic - and I have reason to be (not meaning about any of you guys) - I search for some credibility in order to thrust. Third, if I record and send you video with the situation you want- you won't see me bleeding, that's for sure - but you won't also see nice Bujinkan taijutsu. And that's what troubles me since I would really like to bridge the gap I've told about and apply ninjutsu not only as a principles, but also in a tecnical details!!! And that's the reason why I'm asking that ichimonji question for the third time - and if you have time and energy, write the answer - I won't dicuss about it!
