Nice clip, interesting concept. I'd like to see how the space controlling works when you speed things up a bit, make them more lively. Do you believe in moderate contact sparring as a training method? I'm surprised by the seeming lack of form. It didn't look like the majority of what you were doing was following strictly predefined movements, more like going with the flow of how the situation went. I've heard of a few other arts which claim to do this, including Tai Chi. Is this the case with Ninjutsu? If I'm ever in San Francisco (don't know how likely that will be, but you never know), I'll be sure to visit and see with my own eyes what Ninjutsu looks like. (It's so hard to find a genuine Ninjutsu school, for the reason you posted on your website).
Don't Ping. THUD!!! It's the same. Speed has nothing to do with Dale's defense on that video. Dale could move at half-speed and still be just as effective. I personally do not. Sparring doesn't teach you anything but bad habits, imo. I say this having sparred in multiple martial arts throughout the years.... My personal motto for Taijutsu strikes is: "Don't Ping. THUD!!!" As a Nagato student, I really enjoy hitting people. And this type of hitting is not from the arms. It is from the "Tai" (thus the word "Tai-jutsu"). I believe students should get used to getting hit with THUD-like strikes. Hits affect the skeleton, and so if someone is not hitting, they are not replicating the dynamics of a real fight. That's poor training, imo. HOWEVER, you do not need to "spar" to prepare for a real fight. Having an intimate understanding of the kukan is FAR more important, imo. If you control the kukan, you could have sweaty fingers, dirt in your eye, ice under your feet, and still be able to take the bad guy out. I think the translation "form" for the word "waza" in the Bujinkan is a misnomer. I personally think the translation into English should be "tool." This is because the "waza" in the densho are merely tools for remembering (and bringing to life) principles that were helpful in saving lives back in the Warring Age of Japan. Dale did a very good job of showing how the "tools" from the densho are used.... -ben
It works exactly the same way, and would look the same -- just speed up the movie a bit and you've got it. That may sound facetious, but it's really not: "shaping the space" has to do with an evolving relationship through time. So if Juan were moving faster, I probably would be too (though not necessarily as fast as he himself is moving). It's hard to tell from watching unless you're accustomed to this sort of thing, but Juan is actually moving just about as fast as he can in this situation. . .which has nothing to do with his own innate or "native" speed. He's always structurally out of proper position (and/or off-balance) to do whatever it is he thinks he wants to do. He's younger than I am by 30 years or so, and he very possibly has more actual, natural speed than I do. But it's neutralized by the fact that I continually keep things shaped so that he is always relatively inefficient compared to me. His inefficiency compared to his own normal movement makes everything take longer for him, while my efficiency allows me to do more with less effort and time expended. Definitely. Not sparring in a competitive sense, but in an exploratory sense. We (meaning my dojo) often use a sort of "slow sparring", exactly as described in this article on Russian Systema: http://www.russianmartialart.org/html/slowspar.html (Funny thing about that: We were doing this 20 years and more ago, for exactly the same reasons described, LONG before we ever heard of Systema.) Very much so. Please do -- visitors are always welcome. No charge for first-time visitors to my classes, and they're welcome to either sit and observe or get on the mat and play.
That's quite true. The "relationship" I mentioned above is not dependent on moving at the same rate as the other person.
i dont do ninjitsu, but i liked the video clip, i think its a good example of the soft, evasive skills and going with the flow rather than resisting...so i guess this is similar to aikido, taichi and possibly something similar to what a high level technique should look like...effortless. flowing like water, to break even rock! the only problem i have is the way the attack is launched, theres not enough intent to hit (or snap) and the forward momentum is too great, basically the guy is lunging himself off balance, and doesnt know when to retreat when he should, and is too commited to the one attack...granted the average person on the street will probably attack in this way...but for people who have trained in martial arts i have never seen anyone throw a punch like that. would have been better if the attacker would mix up some combination punches, and some feints....left, right, cross, then hook type thing. but i guess that is what happens when the difference in levels is too great, one just totally dominates the other...
I'm not exactly new to martial arts, or unfamiliar with other fighting styles. I did a wide variety of things for 14-15 years before I found the Bujinkan. And during the slightly more than twenty-one years that I've trained in the Bujinkan I've continued to be exposed to other things as well. ;-) Not that this is really relevant here. As Ben and I have tried to point out, when you're working with the kukan -- rather than "fighting an opponent" -- the other person's style or technical repertoire have no significance. As I said earlier: Bujinkan budo is based on a different operating system.
The idea of "working with space" is very interesting to me. Other styles talk about different ranges, closing gaps, creating distance, avoiding, redirecting, etc., but rarely seem to speak of "controlling the opponent's space." Maybe this is just a different term or way of thinking about the same basic thing, I'm not sure. So how do Bujinkan people go about training how to "work with space"? Are there specific exercises designed to cultivate this awareness or is it just something that comes with experience? Does this space work include controlling the opponent at close range or is it more about long/medium-range strategies of keeping the opponent in a position that is advantageous to you?
Dale I have watched your 30 sec video and it is clear to me that you are just having abit of fun,he he As for the people who want to see faster ,harder attacks let me tell you that the harder you attack the more you get hurt.I used to go hard at my Sensei and after 3 or so punches I couldnt use my arms anymore,and he would be talking to the class as I was attacking. I think its sad when people start to slag off Arts they really dont know alot about. All the best
I'm pretty sure it's a mix of both, but in this video, Mr. Seago seems to have had him at the very start; though the whole "grab punch" maneuver is a little easy to predict (and as mentioned, Juan unknowingly imbalances himself in the approach). Would you say that Ba Gua and Aikido follow similar concepts? It's almost as if a lot of arts have missed this sort of technique, focusing on one form of "trapping" (arms, legs, tosses, etc) rather than keeping open to the whole body. I'll keep in mind, however, that Seago is totally experienced, so instincts don't need to be mentioned. And against UFC fighters...hmm...I'd like to see a 30-second clip of that. "Effective", as we all know, is based on the practicioner. Plus, this space-controlling technique as well all know takes quite a bit of time to really understand and execute casually.
Good clip, you remind me a lot of my Aikido instructer from a long time ago. Personally i wouldn't attack my current instructer, he wouldn't be as gentle as you are. It was probabley only a matter of time before someone said "i'd like to see you do that on a UFC fighter" on this thread. As if being able to beat up a UFC fighter was the sign of a good martial artist. How often do you have to fight UFC contenders anyway?
well... I would say that if you can use your martial art to beat an accomplished ufc fighter then that would be a much better indicator of your real fighting ability than beating someone who just hurls himself at you... Of course it's not absolute, but I wouldn't underestimate those UFC people either.
Could be we please stop all of the UFC NHB LMNOP competitor backslapping? It doesn't apply to Ninpo practitioners, and before someone flames me for "copping out", let me explain. The average Ninpo-ka is more like an Aikido-ka than a boxer. They are typically of adult age, with non-violent/aggressive demeanors and a genuine love of the "esoteric/philosophical" aspects of martial arts. Sure, throwing people around is fun...but the average Ninpo-ka bears no ill will towards their training partners. They typically aren't professional athletes, fighters, contenders, or ego-maniacs. They are just normal working shmoes who enjoy a deep, philosophical martial art, and they approach Ninpo with a reverence that other activities don't have. The average UFC contender (modern, as opposed to the original) is a gifted athlete with an extremely competitive, aggressive demeanor. They care nothing for the philosophy behind an art, and race towards whatever techniques can be used to legally destroy their opponent in a sporting match. Many of them are under 30 (there are exceptions), and approach martial arts as just another form of wrestling, boxing, basketball, football, or any other sport. These are rough generalizations, but it is still obvious as to why you can't compare the two. What also annoys the hell out of me is the blatant disrespect in regards to "challenges" that many TMA get from MMA. NHB fighters always want to drag TMA'ists into "THEIR" ring and have them fight by "THEIR" rules. Ninpo-ka don't train by "THEIR" rules...so what does this prove? Does it make sense for a gang member to challenge an boxer office clerk to a 10 on 10 man gang fight? But they both like fight, right? Does it make sense for a professional basketball player to challenge a pro golfer to a game of B-Ball to prove their "worth"? But they both play sports, right? Should a Medical Doctor be expected to give a lecture on comparative literature from the 13th century against a Ph.D level English Professor? But they both have doctorates, right? Ninpo-ka don't walk around, challenging every MMA'ist to "Spend hours meditating on the finer aspects of taisabaki," SO GET OVER IT! Argh. May you achieve Satori
Satori81, genius post... if i might add, we don't say to the MMA/UFC brigade, "Now, I'm going to attack you with this live katana, you just keep moving out the way..." different paths for different people
Hey, don't instult Bujinkan people! They are not so lame. Kidding. But according to what you just said, Bujinkan practicioner's goal is totally different than fighting (not even similar, like survival). Maybe today "ninjas", but not in feudal Japan. Sorry. :-( BTW, you missed the point about MMA against Ninpoka. It could be any reality-based fighting system. I know it's nice to live in Bujinkan world, and crossing the boundaries hurts, but that's the only way to find the true reality. ;-)
You are compairing a top flight MMA contendor - 95% are not there are just avarage people like me. A more likely analagy (still crap) is a pool player vs a snooker player - do identical things but with a slight twist. As for the MMA people wanting to drag TMA people down to there level - how stupid is that, it is hardly ever the case and there are TMA people doing the same things. Try to be objective with your mud slinging.
I agree 100% with Satori. I was just saying that if it had been a UFC person in the Dojo with Mr. Seago that things would have probably gotten a lot nastier. As to who would have ultimately won I can't say. UFC may not be the ultimate test of real fighting ability, but if Mr. Seago can throw Bob Sapp around like he did that guy then I think he should be on a Wheaties box. Talking about weapons, however, is irrelevant. Obviously someone who has a weapon is at a huge advantage over someone who doesn't. UFC is only supposed to be a test of a hand-to-hand fighting ability in a controlled environement. Of course, there's a lot more to fighting than this, but if you adopt a truly "anything goes" attitude then I might as well bring a machine gun to spar with you.
can i good-naturedly say that of all the people to direct that comment to Satori is not the one. He's one of the few Genbukan people who post regularly here
exactly my point...the whole 'come into my world where i am the king' attitude is tiresome and futile.
