I was curious as to what you guys might think, if the 2008 Beijing Olympics is going to continue, or not. As the unrest continues in the torch relay. Might be just that the Olympics was staged in the wrong country in the first place. http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/10/india.tibet.ap/index.html?iref=newssearch The 2012 London Olympics will be interesting to see. With the 9000 police units patrolling the Olympics. http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm...objectid=19347480&siteid=64736-name_page.html
of course it's gonna go on. the IOC won't do anything, and the individual countries will make their own independent decisions.
The Olympics is so out of touch if they think they're not political. They have no choice but to be political. I'm glad to see China's persecution of Tibetans and restriction of religious freedom being brought to the fore front of the media. As long as China refuses to deal with the Tibetan problem they will always have trouble. As they should. China's invasion of Tibet was pretty damn near to genocide... yet the international community stood by and did nothing. The continued imprisonment, torture and abuse of Tibetans is outrageous and shouldn't go unnoticed. China wants Tibet for it's natural and mineral resources. The building of the railroad to Lhasa had nothing to do with helping the Tibetan people it had to do with being able to move military troops in and mineral resources out. Tibetans are now a minority in Lhasa, once a major Tibetan city, due the Chinese governments policy of marginalization of Tibetans in their own land. Han Chinese are given tax breaks and incentives to move into the Tibetan plateau and are essentially being given what is seized Tibetan land. The infant mortality rates of Han Chinese on the Tibetan plateau is insanely high because they're flat landers who have never lived at elevation. Yet the government continues to move them up in hopes of out breeding the Tibetans. The amount of protests is actually far greater than what has appeared in most western papers and media sources sadly. The repercussion will continue on long after the Olympics has come and gone. If the track record of Chinese human rights is anything to go by. How totally absurd that a big, giant world power like China is afraid to sit down and have a conversation with an old Tibetan man like the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama has continually asked for dialogue and has continually asked Tibetans to act with non violent means. Yet China insists on name calling, finger pointing and persecution. The older generations of Tibetans followed what the Dalai Lama asked of them... the younger generation is not the same... they've seen more of the world and I suspect they'll increasingly turn to violence in the look for an answer. China has enough social unrest and riots on a weekly basis (again very few make the western media) that the last thing they need is violent Tibetans. Shame on the Olympics for not taking a stand and living in some fairy dreamland and thinking somehow they are not political. Of course they are. It's a foregone conclusion. I'd be happy if the US and other major world powers pulled out of the Olympics. I doubt they will but I'd like to see more pressure on China to actually arrive at a solution with the Tibetans. Until China does... the Tibetans will not stop. Ever. And China will continue to have problems in that area.
I hear alot of people talking about this lately, but i dont have any idea why. edit: nevermind, Slipthejab just answered my question.
I totally agree with ya Slip. But I gotta mention that, they should ban all of the Olympics. Until the societies around the world can get a grip, to start making peace and prosperity to each other. It's getting to be more like a bull stampede out there. I do feel sorry for the poor athletes who worked so hard to be proud of their own country. While being harrassed by the Tibetian's. After all of these years of the Tibetian's being pushed around. I can see why they are acting the way they are. At least in a non-violent way so far. China should just give the Tibetian's what they want, and hope for them not to continue to harrass the Olympians. If the Tibetian's decide to pressure China more to stop the Olympics. What desperate measures would it take for China to get a understanding? I mean comon the Tibetian's want to be heard for goodness sakes. Wake up China.
It's Tibetans not Tibetians. Also while I agree 100% with slip's post I think you're being incredibly naieve shrukin. I also fail to see how stopping the olympics until the worlds totally at peace (which I don't think has ever happened) would be of any benefit to anyone. Not letting China host them is I think a valid argument but stopping them altogether? I think that's pointless. China will also not just 'give the Tibetans what they want' because they are getting bad press. They've been getting bad press for 50 odd years and indeed how they are behaving now in Tibet is alot better than what they were up to in the past say like during the cultural revolution. To be clear I really strongly sympathise with the Tibetans and think anyone who cares about justice and morals should support their claims for more independence but I think being unrealistc won't help anyone.
While i agree with Slips points 100% i can’t help but think of the flip side to it. I mean, most people who are up in arms about China and the Olympics being held there probably don’t give a second thought that a lot of the things they buy come from or are made in China. It's just the Olympics is convenient for them to criticise. Im not looking forward to London 2012 at all. I wonder if all the athletes will be given stab proof vests?? Also it will be interesting to see just how our foreign policies have developed by then.
This storm of protest has been whipped up by western governments as part of their political manouverings against regimes which won't completely kow-tow to them. The idea that the US and UK have become the world's moral police is utterly laughable. We all know that they never infringe on anyone's human rights or are aggressive or bomb / invade countries with impunity..... The Tibetans obviously have a strong case, but the protests we are witnessing are nothing more than political point scoring by cynical western governments. If we ha dto cancel the Olympics for such reasons and apply it fairly to every country then our choices of venue would be greatly restriced.
Thats a ridiculous argument Cathain. For the most part the protests have obviously been an embarassment and nuisance to the various European governments. Also the protests are overtly organised by pro-Tibet organisations like 'Free Tibet' so there really is no need to posit a shadowy government conspiracy to undermine China. I always think that people criticising 'cynical Western governments' often times have probably very little grasp of what it's like to live anywhere that isn't run by one. Certain countries foreign policies may leave alot to be desired and the historical injustifces of the Western nations are all well known but the old adage '2 wrongs don't make a right' seems fitting. Human rights abuses in China today are orders of magnitude greater compared to what goes on in Britain and America.
What do people think of all the people who came out to support China during the torch run? Not to support the Olympics but the support China.
It's inevitable Satsui. I have many friends who are from mainland China and despite being some of the nicest people I know when it comes to politics they are 100% on the party line. This in my experience is the case for the vast majority of people from mainland China; they are extremely nationalistic and since the Chinese governemnts response to these criticisms has been to try and promote the idea that the protests are just attempts by Western nations to destroy the unity of China I don't find it at all suprising that Chinese people are coming out to as they envision it support and defend their country.
I'd count them as most likely very naive. They probably don't understand the magnitude of cultural marginalization the Tibetans have been under by the mainland Chinese government. When one considers that Lhasa is now dominated by low land Han Chinese I think that right there should send up red flags. China doesn't even mince words about it's programs of mariginalization or it's campaigns of brutality. One only has to look at the clearly documented abuses of the Tibetan peoples at the hands of the Chinese government to see that this situation will not get better until China actually addressses the issue. The pro Chinese crowd seem primarily to be towing the nationalist/race line - eg. they're out to support China and the Chinese people regardless of the issues... regardless of the abuses... regardless of the bloodshed. Stupidity of the highest order. The issue of Tibet is one of human rights and the abuse by the Chinese government of it's ethnic minorities. It's not just limited to Tibetans but also to many other ethnic minorities in China. The Uigar people come to mind first off. But even at the academic level in the China there is a drive to marginalize them down to a handful of ethnic minorites (primarily trying to call them all Yi people). Anyone who follows ethnography and the classification and studies of languages in China can't but help notice how badly run the state sponsored/university programs are for classifying and dealing with ethnic minorities. At any rate... in the long term I wonder how China expects to come into the modern world yet still be subjugating it's ethnic minorities with medieval methods of brutality. As for anyone grandstanding in the western countries... some of that is true... but personally if that puts the spotlight on the the Tibetan cause then that is fine by me. I think if you look at many of the voices involved you'll find that they've been involved with the Tibetan cause for quite some time. Richard Gere for instance... who I can't stand as an actor... has been incredibly committed to the cause... he doesn't need to be... he's far wealthier than you or I are... yet he takes the time out to speak out about something he has the ability to influence. I commend him for that.
At the end of the day, while slip may be right, CKava is even more correct. The Olympics will go on, and while individual countries or athletes may have something to say about China's human rights policies, I don't see the Olympics being cancelled; if anything, some out there will use them to draw MORE attention to the sitch. Which would be nice. But I don't see a boycott like we saw in 1980 and 1984. Quite frankly, there's too much $$$ in the games at this point
What is going on out there right now is just stupid. Look at what happened in Paris, San Fransico. I never seen really anything like it at all.. Really, I haven't. The Olympics back in the day when I was growing up, (Athens, and Sydney) I didn't see any protestors, or broken out violence and people rioting the streets. Everything was fine. All of sudden when it came up to this year when China hosted the Olympics. People started going psycho everywhere. Torch got re-lit about 3 times so far, Olympic committee having to re-route the torch relay to get away from protestors, many police holding back the crowds every foot and a bit to let the athlete get through to the next person to hand the torch off to. Who the heck needs that? It was more or less of a understatement. I'm not into politics nor really understand any of it, or any of the countries history's and culture. All I'm saying is that I hope they cancel the Olympics before it gets uglier. Forget about pride, throw in the white towel and call it a day. It just might save an athletes life, by not participating. It might also loosen up conflict between nations if they come into an agreement. Here's a suggestion, love your neighbor. Treat them with respect and they'll treat you with respect. That's far from what's happening now. That's why the Olympics should be laid off, because the neighboring countries don't have any love for each other whatsoever.
When you make statements like: It's hard to see any reason to really heed your arguments about political/social events. The fact that you haven't lived long enough to remember other olympics protests doesn't mean they haven't happened before. They have and some were much worse than whats going on now. Also again like I said asking people to call off the olympics until the world is a utopia were every country loves their neighbouring countries is silly. The world has never been a utopia and we can't just halt everything until it is. In this instance it's worth noting that China isn't even regarding Tibet as a neighbour but as a part of China! As for saving an athletes life I think your roaming off into fantasy now. No-one is advocating attacking athletes. The attempts to extinguish the flame where aimed at the olympics overall not at the athletes themselves. If you lived somewhere were protesting and violence had occured a bit more often you might understand that you can't just put everything every single time it happens.
The games will go on, and some nations may boycott. It's too late now to move them to somewhere else, there's nowhere in the world that's equipped to handle the games on such short notice. Your only other option is to cancel it entirely, and with the Olympics losing their lustre in recent years anyway, that could kill them completely. I personally don't mind when/if nations boycott, as they make the games more memorable in the course of human history. Nobody remembers the Atlanta games anymore, but everybody remembers the 1980 and 1984 games and the political ramifications. I really believe that the Olympics are outdated anyway, in a world where ex-patriots can compete for the nation of their choice and the vast number of medals are won by a handful of nations. Not only that, but most Olympians train in those countries anyway, regardless of which flag they represent. The Olympics are a joke now, so why should people really care?
Godwin's Law... I can't believe no-one has said something like "This is exactly the same sort of propaganda machine the Nazi's used the 1936 Berlin games for" yet! Anyway, it's an easy (and reasonably accurate) comparison. China are looking to put on a good show as a demonstration of what a great country they are and don't seem to care how they achieve that ends. You only have to do a quick google to find all sorts of stories about deaths being hushed up in the construction of the stadiums, people being displaced to make way for it all etc etc. I'm glad people are protesting, I'm behind them 100%. The casual acceptence of China's occupation of Tibet by the west is galling to say the least. We actually had a pub quiz question the other week along the lines of "in which chinese province does the dali llama live?" to which had to point out the appalling error involved. I do think we should boycott the games, definately. But I also think in an ideal world the games should NEVER have gone to China in the first place!! As for stopping them completely, I disagree. I think the sporting world still see's them as a very important date, and as international events go it's not too bad. That said: I think the UK have quite clearly lied about how much it's going to cost, and I think the money could be spent better elsewhere. It's not the games itself that's the problem, it's the entire industry that's grown up around it.
This Olympics is like the Berlin games, only after the holocaust. I remember seeing a Chinese student on the news saying that it's difficult when political issues get involved, especially ones that are twisted and spun by the UK media.... ...Idiot.
