Look you've got a lot of fancy dressed up words there to say that you have no idea how to begin to approach this subject. I'm both a qualified 3rd generation Wing Chun instructor, have a breadth of martial arts and defensive tactics/arrest training, and have enough practical experience putting people on the ground in my previous job to know that Icefield is correct. Wing Chun is not the system to use for empty handed defence against a knife. That's not what it's for, period. It is the wrong tool for that job. And this, tells me you definitely don't know what you're talking about. Most blackbelts in non-sport systems would be in serious jeopardy if you gave your average man a knife and told him to gut them, never mind a fit, determined attacker, and god forbid they actually know what they're doing. The best defence against a knife beyond not being there in the first place, is a weapon with more reach, preferably a lot of reach. The best empty handed defence is to get a weapon with more reach into your hand. The next best defence is to snatch that knife arm and try to wrestle them to the ground and/or strip the knife away, usually accompanied by as many headbutts as you can get into their face area, while gripping on for dear life hoping these won't be your last moments and trying like hell to just make them open their hand for a fraction of a second. Most martial artists are crap at knife defence, and even most people who are well trained in knife defence are just slightly less crap. There are a handful of people who are really well trained who are just slightly less crap than that, but even good training doesn't improve your odds anywhere near as much as most people think it does, or as much as we wish it would.
I didn't even see this, it's so wrong it's not even funny, Go watch a clip of your average knife defense being done Or Or Then go watch some clips of real knife attacks the ones where people die and see just how commited aggressive and fast these attacks are they go back and watch the traditional videos again.... (Not posting any here as it's not really family friendly) If that doesn't convince you just give a blunt knife to a athletic non trained person, put on some sort of helmet to protect yourself and tell them to be aggressive and commited kill you, they will over and over,
The shock knife training be a wake up call to many. Also worth noting that during a knife attack it is often reported that they didn't know when they had been stabbed until they passed out or they observed the blood everywhere. The shock knife can help highlight this when training it. From that last video it also sounds like it triggers a dump when he heard the sound of it, which is another good way to train with that pressure. I've done so many of those static training drills and when we played around with it in a semi live format almost all of the "traditional" drills failed. That 2 on one arm grab seems the most consistent one to drill.
Richardson on his knife videos shows clips of real attacks some of which people die from, more than a few thought they were trading punches with someone when in fact they were being stabbed in the neck and body and didn't know until they felt the wet stuff or the other guy ran off, by then it was too late. Control the knife, which means control the knife arm in a way it's hard for them to swap hands because there's one thing that comes across over and over in real clips, people with a knife want to hurt you badly and are resourceful in how they go about it which means they will find a path to your body and vital points no matter what you try to do They universally seem to go body body then neck ie change target to get real damage if they are being blocked low they go high and they swap hands if they have to if you are stopping them from hurting you with one hand. So stop the knife arm and don't let them swap, don't worry about the other arm hitting you unless it's got a weapon in it Get the knife arm, Get in close to stop momentum, Get between the knife arm and his free arm with your body Disarm if you can But above all this as Ben says don't be there, or be there with a longer weapon
well I never said it was... I just said it is a toolkit and you use what you have if you have to. You are reading stuff into my replies to specific questions that were not there. The questions were about WC specifically. As I said, don't engage unless you have no choice. You also do not know what anti knife is used in different WT systems - I have seen techniques taken from several other systems - it depends on the WC school (OK, arguably it then becomes not WC in the traditional sense, but these things are part of OUR WC system). You may be referring to knife techniques in your lineage but please don't make assumptions. BTW 3rd gen WC instructor doesn't mean a lot since there are some really bad schools out there - I hope you are not from one of them, I'm sure you're not, and delighted that you have trained multiple systems which I already stated somewhere is very important. I also stated that you need to understand a systems weaknesses, and stated that it is not the system but the individual that makes the defence. If you read all my distinct posts to questions you will see I have not stated anything that you are accusing me of. It is pointless even posting here to be honest since every response just takes things out of context with people just wanting to have their tuppence on what was originally a simple question, responding out of context and in your case adding unfounded insults when you have not read my posts properly to understand what I am saying in the case of each.
^ I've heard there's a lot of really terrible wing chun school's out there, ones that teach nonsense knife defense, and then start blaming the student for using the toolkit ineffectively. Probably the same sort that wouldn't take any criticism in a constructive manner, and then try to belittle other WC students with differing opinions. I'm glad your not one of those people.
That's a poor excuse for people trying to justify using a rectal thermometer as a hammer when they have a whole hardware store available, and they'd be better served by sticking it....well... I'm sure you can guess. Really didn't. I can fence and call it MY boxing, but it's still not boxing. Which empty handed blade defence is for wing chun. More poor excuse for a terrible tool. If I handed someone a squash, and I had a rifle, and I then shot them, would it still be "the individual that makes the defence" or can we agree that some tools are inadequate to the job? If you'll read your own post that I quoted you'll see that you are. No one here is taking anything out of context. Rather we're responding to what you've written as written. You've clear and glaring gaps in your knowledge and the same excuses people have been using for decades and which don't actually do anything to improve ones odds in the chosen defensive context. If you consider calling someone ignorant who, to anyone with real experience on the subject, is clearly ignorant, well then spade, you're welcome to feel insulted.
agreed, that is bad... when I said most black belts, I really meant real black belts in arts that are effective. The whole problem with this debate is that there is so much bad stuff taught, and that includes winchun, WT, VT schools.... but also other arts as seen in those videos. A real knife attack like you say could be ferocious if they are in attack mode rather than threatening mode. I should have been more specific with my analogy. My lineage goes back to WT roots (Leung Ting) and that is pretty awful. Many Sifus have left over the years and gone their own way, adapting concepts for effectiveness and aggression, not stickiness. Both our chief instructors left WT for those reasons amongst others (like it being a money making racket), also Sifu Klaus Brand left who has completely redeveloped the system and who we studied under for some years - I remember someone telling me something about him being kicked out for a while because he was destroying his instructors with different techniques and they didn't like it, but I might have that wrong. There will be similar issues across all arts and the key is recognising that and finding the right school/s. That's the problem with these debates, too many counter examples and too little space to be too specific.
The problem with these debates is people are often blind to the obvious, so much so it goes beyond ironic to something all together worse
You know what, I really can't be bothered. You have no idea of my training an lineage, you are reading things into my statements that were not meant and jumping to conclusions where I was answering specific questions about WC hence I answered in that context- You are showboating, and while I do not disagree with everything you are saying your approach to discussion is immature. You look about 30 or less (but could be an old picture) whilst claiming to have trained in 13 martial arts (you could not have possibly trained them all to any level that means anything worth stating), your school is not running, you claim 3rd generation as if it adds some credibility, and have the title Sifu when most lineages in my experience reserve that title for those that have trained a number of people to technician (black belt ish) level which I very much doubt you have done based on your age and how long those types of levels take. I know Sifu means teacher, but we have instructors that are not called Sifu. So I'm sorry, I match most of your points, also instruct, also 3rd generation, have trained several styles to differing degrees - I know there are problems with all systems, anyone with experience knows that. You twist my meaning by referring to rifles and a squash when I assume you know exactly what I mean (a mid level student with the right mentality and psychology could beat someone multiple grades higher that does not have the right mentality) - so you ARE taking things out of context and twisting them whether accidentally or otherwise, but that says more about you than me. To be explicit in all my answers would have required an essay for each - the problem with these forums which I concede does encourage misinterpretation of statements. Of course some tools are inadequate for the job, I was referring to tools that are fit for purpose. A rifle still needs someone that can use it in the correct way and has drilled it - showing someone to use a rifle and then expecting them to be effective is clearly not going to work. I have no reason to doubt that you have some good skills and if your class re-opens when I am next in Toronto I will pop along with no malice intended - I am genuinely interested and adopt techniques from all systems and experiences. You do not need to act with superiority or try to build credibility with claims that do not mean anything - cockiness and over confidence is what gets people killed. and by the way, if the only winchun is the original then you might as well write off WC entirely... 'traditional WC' is outdated and not fit for purpose in most cases. Every system changes over time, so ok, if you like you can say that our system is not WC since it has altered and includes other techniques and drills not traditionally taught... you know what, thank god for that. If your line was VT as it appears, under Nelson Chan (RIP), then it would explain some of the statements you made since that is your reference point. Oh, and whilst we do have standard knife drills, those are not 'applications' - we separately do full on random knife attacks outside of the drills to test what works and what doesn't - we fully recognise drills are drills and pressure testing is pressure testing. I urge you spend some time to train with Sifu Paul Wang IAW US as he is the closest to you that I know of, just so that you can see some of the things we do differently in WC to what you will have been taught (we are no longer affiliated with IAW but remain similar). So it looks like I could be bothered after all. Again, I know this is going to prompt further misinterpretation and comment, so how about we draw a line and you consider checking out alternative WC like IAW if you are genuinely interested and want to understand what was behind some of my comments - but train with them, don't just watch videos and pick holes without understanding the context of what they are doing. Stay safe, and if I do get to your class then I am happy to show some of the differences in techniques, and equally happy to see alternative techniques... over and out.
Paul Wang ^ And this is your lineage right? Have you got any examples of what you would think of as good examples of weapons defence?
Jeez, quite old vids. The first one has Sif Klaus Brand as the lead villain looking guy, haha, love the way they have a fan blowing his hair. A bit unnecessary, but these are promotional vids I suppose. Paul Wang appears too. In that vid there are excerpts from a number of drills which WT lineage will recognise aspects of albeit these are far more aggressively trained than WT. 2nd and 3rd video I think pre-date when we realigned with Klaus for a few years, but not sure. they are from the UK classes and just illustrative of some drills and applications... each student and tech level has one or more 'drills' called sections and 'applications' based on ideas from those sections (plus forms, footwork drills, freeform etc). Vids 2 and 3 show a mix of drills and applications... to be clear, drills are not applications, they are like two person forms incorporating a number of ideas... e.g. student level 6 contains ye mar, and moving from inside to outside (and vice versa), student level 5 is about controlling distance and using elbows. Lots of details in each and lots of training to become instinctively proficient. Hence the original question on the thread about 20 years to learn the system... you can learn the system a lot faster, but you wont be proficient in its application. Those are two very different things and if all someone wants is a grade or belt without the skills then there are plenty of schools (WC or otherwise) that will sell you such things quite quickly - we do not pass a grade until we know a level and can demonstrate proficiency to a certain level. At SL12 you redo all levels up to that point and have to show higher levels of application proficiency. We also condition our arms right from SL1. Some WC wait until wooden dummy before arm conditioning I understand. Judging by the third video which I pop up in a couple of times, I think that was when I was 1st Technician so would have been 5 to 7 years or so ago I guess. examples of weapon defence... I don't think there are any videos that I remember... we are about to re-open our public classes in the UK and I am about to test a couple of guys in preparation for grading so I will see if I can do something. Whatever I post will be criticized though and we are not supposed to publicly post videos of what we do, but I will ask. There is no specific technique though - planning a technique we deem as dangerous since it is too random, so you would see probably ideas like distance control, feigning, followed by massive aggression, potentially arm control if practical in the scenario, controlled takedown - anything really... what you are unlikely to see is specific knife trained techniques as they don't tend to work at least until you are in a position of dominance. This is all of course assuming you cant run away, assumes there could be a 2nd attacker, and assumes you may not survive it. I do not claim it is perfect or will save you at all. all you can do IMO is maximise your chances through training and testing it. Same with any technique to be honest - you never know who you are up against or what skills they have or what they may do. A number of our students have had to use this for real (WC, not anti knife)... the humble and lower level student took out two muggers that jumped him.. an over confident cocky higher level ended up with his head stamped on because he deliberately engaged when he didn't need to and made a fatal mistake of remaining next to the person he had put to the ground who (once recovered from being stunned) grabbed his legs. Like I said previously, its not just the tool, its the person (comments about rifles vs fruit aside).
Just as a general comment it always amazes me that wing chun is probably one of the most popular Kung Fu styles in the world and yet the number of good videos of it are so few..... It also amazes me that when asked for videos on a subject people say they aren't supposed to post them even when there are clips all over the place of their organisation advertising itself and those clips look, well ..... Honestly not great
I don't know how popular different styles are, but Tai Chi was something I'd heard about all my life, while Wing Chun was something I didn't really discover until the last ten years (and mostly from the slew of Donnie Yen Ip Man movies that sort of resurged it recently) It was an eye opener to me at least, picking up Tai Chi, because you can find both health and grappling videos out there that I think effectively showcase the values/benefits of both. Even when being shown efficient versus inefficient ways to simply push people in Tai Chi, learning the body mechanics clicks, and watching some videos you can see the rooting, explosiveness, and subtle footwork in real sparring videos, something that for boxing is so common it's nonchalant. And something in common with boxing and Tai Chi is a rather low prevalence of Tai Chi masters out there claiming to be combat aces (with occasional exceptions). Boxer who do that get a rep quick and unless they can back it up, not in a good way. But then with Wing Chun you get almost the opposite: a huge range of "masters" who claim to be heralds of an ancient, legendary boxing style but who struggle to show even basic prowess in a way that would quiet down an old tired "traditional" boxer like me. Then it seems there are two camps: those who decided "you know, I'll make Wing Chun part of my personal style" and then hammer it like steel. Then the other camp, full of lame demos, theoretical chats with no live demonstrations, and my least favorite, the claim that the "real" fighting is so secret and guarded that the only way to see it is submit yourself to training first. That last part bugs me. I'm the furthest thing from a Kung Fu pro, but I'm pretty confident I could spot good from crapola. And I'm positive if I questioned the purveyor of crapola, I'd be lectured on my (pick one):. Ego, inexperience, enlightenment, power level.
Really? If you Google Tai chi self defense you tend to get as much rubbish as you do if you Google wing chun self defense (and people tend to not put up self defence clips unless they honestly believe they are good at and can teach fighting) and outside of the Chen village pushing competition's I've yet to see much proper fighting or sparring from tai chi that looks useful. Maybe we are watching different clips though.
...by quoting you and responding directly to the things you said.......uh....okay then. If that's the case you need to write more carefully. Truisms aren't a deflection for specific criticisms. But as I said, Wing Chun is not. It really doesn't, and it didn't take an essay to refute them. I'm not. I'm laying out my actual experience with both Wing Chun, and pretty regularly having to put people into the ground on the job. Teaching Judo in a Wing Chun class doesn't make Judo into Wing Chun. You know what the traditional knife defence is in Wing Chun? Use a weapon. Seriously. Wing Chun's empty hand system is derived from the use of the wu dip do and the sue mai gwan. There is no expectation of facing knives empty handed because the empty handed portion used to be taught second. No, just most practitioners just don't really understand how to reformulate the component pieces for different applications, never mind how to actually train to fight. I've visited about a dozen different Wing Chun schools and quite frankly, I've been as unimpressed as I am with almost every youtube video of various schools. I appreciate that but I've taken a sabbatical from teaching due to health reasons.
Oh brother, have I been binge watching and seen the good, bad, ugly, and truly wrong (if you want to see one of those I'll post one after this). I did that test and it turns out even though there are about three times as many Google hits for Tai Chi, there are far more informative and applicable videos (just a bigger pile of mediocre and bad in which to find them), than Wing Chun, I think. And yes, there is so much bad, ugly, and wrong out there I'm glad I've started to learn the difference. The thing is, first Tai Chi actually has a good deal of medical science behind it for health and strength, unlike Wing Chun (at least I can't find anything). It's like boxers who take up ballroom dancing to really get in touch with their body weight and balance, grace and all that. Second, and I think this is true, you'll find a lot more MMA guys interested in the mechanics of Tai Chi because it's pretty simple kinesiology directly applicable to things like no-gi grappling. Some videos that pop up fast are Chen family matwork (I'm assuming this is real, because it looks like it to me). But also there is a lot of Tai Chi discussion going on in sport combat gyms. But best of all I think are these kinds of "backyard Tai Chi" videos. These two dudes are having a blast, and this looks more realistic than any Wing Chun sparring video I've seen yet.
