2 vs 3 day split

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Matt B, Sep 16, 2008.

  1. Matt B

    Matt B Valued Member

    Just wondering if there were any advantages/disadvantages to either method (time taken not withstanding)? Assuming you do the same exercises doing a bit of push, pull and legs on each day.
     
  2. Yost

    Yost Valued Member

    If you have the time, 3 is better.
     
  3. tophalf69

    tophalf69 New Member

    If you are doing push pull and legs during every session then I see no need for 3 way. One good thing about 3 way (and 4) is for trying to avoid one session having negative impact on the next. For example, doing triceps in one sesion and then the following session training chest is a bad thing as the likelyhood of your triceps failing during the chest session before your chest has failed is greatly increased therefore reducing the benefit of the chest session. This principle though is mainly applicable to someone following a bodybuilding routine that is training with high intensity.

    I suppose for you the one advantage of 3 way would be variation of the exercises you do for each plane of movement but it isn't necessary in order to see gains and variation can be had by changing routines round.
    If I was you I would be only doing a two way at most, unless you are looking at gaining muscle from your routine then I would say you should fully re-evaluate your training principles.
     
  4. Yost

    Yost Valued Member

    Why 2 days at most? If you can recover from 3 days a week (which I think most people can) then why not? Twice a week is a pretty low frequency..
     
  5. Garrett

    Garrett Valued Member

    You're misunderstanding the OP's question.

    He's not asking if he should do 2 or 3 days of weights a week. He's asking if it is better to split his routine up into 2 or 3 sessions, working different muscle groups in each one.
     
  6. tophalf69

    tophalf69 New Member

    "Assuming you do the same exercises doing a bit of push, pull and legs on each day."

    The above sentence says the same exercises each day here, not on seperate days!!

    Could the original poster clarify please?
     
  7. tophalf69

    tophalf69 New Member


    Depends on the intensity of the sessions and also other training he is doing through the week. If he trains with enough intensity then two sessions would be enough and if he is repeating bodyparts on each session even this could be too much as he could still be sore. There are so many variables but I am looking at it as if he is going to be training extremely hard but either way a split routine is always better IMHO but that isn't what he was asking for. Each case has to be looked at in it's entirety, again more clarity is required from the original poster.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2008
  8. Yost

    Yost Valued Member

    I think he's asking how many days a week he should train his whole body.


    I disagree that a split routine is always better. I'm not really sure what you mean by intensity, but I think the real issue here is volume.

    For an example of a split, let's say that on each day (push, pull, legs) he does 9 sets of that body part. Now, let's suppose that he's doing 3 full-body workouts a week, and each time he does 3 sets on each body part (so 9 sets total). We have the same volume, but on the 3-day split, he'll be performing 8 sets where at least SOME fatigue is present in that part of the body. While if we look at the full body workout, only 2 sets per exercise will have muscular fatigue as a contributing factor (so 6 total). His overall quality of work (as well as total weight lifted) will be higher on the full body workouts, and he will be able to increase the load on every body part 3 times each week rather than once.

    Each body part gets more rest with the full body split, and none are ever "obliterated" - which may interfere with other training (martial arts, etc.) I'm assuming that strength is his goal.

    If he's trying primarily to gain muscle, I understand that fatigue is not always a bad thing and that a body part split may be ideal. I don't really know enough about programming for muscle gain to talk about that, though.
     
  9. Matt B

    Matt B Valued Member

    Hi guys. THanks for the replies. Guess i should clarify!

    At the moment i split my workout over 3 days: Push - Pull - Legs over Mon - Wed - Fri doing 5x5 on each exercise. Prior to this i was doing bodyparts (so shoulders and arms, chest and upper back, legs & lower back). While i do want to gain muscle mass I'm working on burning off fat at the moment with another 5kg at least to go before I'm ion a happier zone!

    If i were to drop down to 2 days instead of the routine above, i would probably do a couple of exercises from each. I do 6 on each day now (as that's how many fit on a page in my MaxiMuscle diary thing!) so it would simply be 2 days of 9 as i would split the legs routine over 2 days.

    What this would allow me to do is an extra day doing kickboxing. Just as hard work, but i view it as more fun than lifting weights (which i don't enjoy doing, but it feels good afterwards!). I would probably pick Monday and Friday for weights day with Sat/Sun for total rest and Tues/Wed/Thurs for kickboxing.

    Does that help?
     
  10. Yost

    Yost Valued Member

    Doing 9 5x5 exercises in one day is too much to be getting the full value of each exercise. If you're someone who's worried about not being able to train as much as you want to, you can't afford to waste recovery on sets that aren't giving you a full result. If you split it the way I recommended (3 full body per week) you shouldn't have any trouble recovering (since you're doing the same amount of total work, over 3 days instead of 2.) Actually, I really think you only need 3 exercises per session, so it would even be lower.

    To burn fat, alter your diet.
     
  11. tophalf69

    tophalf69 New Member

    The gaining of strength and muscle can be directly related in how they are trained. If you want to get stronger then doing a full body workout 3 times per week is about the worst way that I can think of that you can do it and to say each body part gets more rest is crazy as you would be training them MORE often. If you think you can increase load THREE times per week EVERY week then I think that you are seriously deluded!!! When does the muscle get time to recover and get stronger? A complete novice would gain some strength but increasing gains would not last long. What about the long term?
    If you have gained a substantial amount of strength training this way then I would be very grateful if you would write down your routine, how often you trained and how much you started lifting versus what you lift now and how long that took to achieve. I am not being funny, I am seriously intrigued.

    With you not understanding the meaning of intensity I find it difficult to understand how you can disagree with me. It seems you are confusing the effects of volume as if it has a correlation with intensity and you are looking at muscle soreness as being the sole physiological effect on the body when trained. To simply look at volume is, TBH, an old fashioned method of measuring your training which granted is still widely accepted but still wide of the mark. The results of these beliefs are quite evident in the amount of frustration and confusion you read in magazines and forums and by the lack of people's gains even after years of training. Also, when a person trains be it with weights, martial arts, running, cycling or whatever it has an overall physiological effect on recovery. Weight training is especially hard on a person's recovery so training in the most efficient and effective method without doubt is the way forward.

    The intensity that a person trains with can be measured by how close they are getting to all out muscular/physiological failure during a given exercsie.

    For example:

    An individual may begin a set of squats with their maximum working weight. At reps 1 to 3 the effort is very high but the level of intensity isn't at maximum as they aren't close to failure. Reps 4 to 6 however are getting a lot harder, they are struggling to breathe, their blood pressure is getting higher, their legs are starting to hurt and the overall effect is a greater level of intensity not just on their legs but on their whole physiological being. By rep 7 the individual may be wondering if they can maybe do 2 more reps and they slowly lower the weight to the bottom and push as hard as possible, grunting and groaning with the effort and slowly rising to the top of the rep with their legs on fire barely being able to breathe, their eyesight dims slightly and the sounds in the gym are not even noticeable, very close to their limit but not quite there yet. Ok, so now on rep 8, the training partner steps a little closer in a position so they can be ready for physical support if necessary. As the person lowers the weight it seems suddenly heavier, they are struggling to even control the negative now, they are wobbling a little, eventually gets to the bottom of the rep and they push with all of their being, nearly black out, shouting as they fight against the weight, fails to rise and even with the partner trying to help drops to the rack.

    At this point the person has trained with his maximum available resources, the highest possible level of intensity.
    They are on the floor gasping for breath, nauseated, legs so painful they could have been kicked 1000 times each. That is INTENSITY.
    Try doing that 3 times per week with a full body routine, not possible. Oh and just to clarify, your strength would increase MUCH faster doing the above versus doing trhree sets of leg extensions etc etc 3 times per week not to mention the whole body strength effect that squats gives you.

    The issue isn't volume, it's the resources that your body has at it's disposal. If a person trains with a highly intensive weight routine twice per week and then they go on to also partake in martial arts classes and maybe some other fitness training such as running etc they will already be eating into their recovery abilities, to add another weight session never mind unnecessary sets would be detrimental in every way.

    Volume work is not an effective means of measuring at all, you talk of the total amount of weight lifted etc which is TBH useless when you want to gain size and strength, you may as well do 1000 sets at low weight working with that principle.
    By working volume all people think they need do is add another set and hey presto they will grow or get stronger because they have done more overall work, sorry but this is baloney. This only serves to eat away at valuable glycogen stores and your valuable (and limited) recovery whilst training in a manner that doesn't work to increase strength enough, is more time consuming and you plateau very quickly. It does not break muscle tissue down enough for overcompensation growth.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2008
  12. tophalf69

    tophalf69 New Member

    If you pick up a weight and you train with maximum intensity to complete failure then the muscle is damaged to the point where it needs to grow in order to deal with the new stresses that you are placing on that muscle. This is why people who get stronger get bigger. It is all about being more progressive and measuring your performance gains, which is difficult if you do 3 sets of 10 reps with x weight over x number of exercises for x sets of x reps etc etc. I have tried it, I have tried nearly every training routine and principle that you can think of along with numerous training partners and the results are always the same. Fewer sets, higher intensity, progressive weights, good nutrition and plenty of rest, it’s not rocket science; so many people try to overcomplicate things.

    Simply measure what you can lift for a given set (once you are warmed up of course) and then write down the result. When you next come to do that exercise look in your book, see what you achieved and aim to achieve more reps than what is written. When you get to 10 reps you increase the weight a little. Now this might drop you to 6 reps but no problem because next week you will go for more than 6 and in a month you might be increasing the weight again. As the cycle continues, you get stronger and bigger, before you know it you will be lifting 50% again more than when you started training this way.

    Now if all you want is more strength you still train with high intensity but you don’t alter your diet, you can’t build a big house without more bricks!!

    Whatever your goals are with training with weights to have an affect on your body, be it looking toned, strength, size whatever, it doesn’t matter one jot, IT IS ALL THE SAME. Muscle is muscle

    Training for either getting bigger or just wanting to have a good beach bod is no different, the difference is in the diet, just train HARD not LONG.

    Training with intensity and using your STRENGTH gains to measure progress is the most effective and efficient means to achieve your goals. It also means you don’t need to train as often (I train my body parts once every 11 days and I am still getting stronger) which leaves more time to do your martial arts.

    For the OP, give this a go:

    Record all exercises and maximum lifts (VITAL)
    WARM UP SETS ARE JUST THAT, WARM UP!!!!!!

    Session 1 Monday

    Deadlifts (2 to 3 sets warming up and 1 set to maximum to achieve 6 to 10 reps)
    Chins (2 warm up sets and 1 max set to achieve 6 to 10 reps)
    Bench or dumbbell press (as above)
    Shoulder Press (2 warm up sets and 1 max set to achieve 6 to 10 reps)
    E-Z bar curls (1 warm up set and 1 set to maximum to achieve 6 to 10 reps)
    Dips or pushdowns (as with E-Z curls but with dips you will need to add weight to your belt)

    Session 2 Friday

    Squats (2 to 3 sets warming up and 1 set to maximum to achieve 6 to 10 reps)
    Lying leg curls (2 warm up sets and 1 max set to achieve 6 to 10 reps)
    Leg extensions (1 set to maximum)
    Standing calf raise (1 warm up sets and 1 max set to achieve 6 to 10 reps)
    Seated calf raise (1 warm up sets and 1 max set to achieve 6 to 10 reps)

    I haven’t added abs as I am sure you do them when you go kickboxing but if you want I can add them also.


    The above is very basic and simple. All reps should be performed under total control, no swinging weights or trying to do more than you can safely handle, this will just make gains look more than they really are and you only cheat yourself.
    I have trained people for years, and never, not once has anyone that has trained as I have said not been amazed by their gains, even seasoned bodybuilders one of whom I am training at the moment.
    Be progressive and don’t think more is better in terms of volume. Train smart and hard and you will be amazed at how quickly your overall strength and size will increase.
    Make sure you record everything and be aware of how you feel, we aren’t machines we are human so on occasion you may need to back off or take some time off.
    Don’t train legs the day before kickboxing for obvious reasons and don’t be put off with how much pain you may be in after the first couple of sessions, this will ease off but walking like John Wayne after legs comes with the territory!!
    Oh and if you want some extra muscle then you are going to have to eat accordingly!!

    One important point, to make decent gains you don't have to use so much effort that you are nearly passing out, I used this to illustrate what intensity is. I do often train until I am nearly puking or passing out but I have been tranining for 19yrs and to competition level, I need to seriously push myself to gain. You should start out on the principles mentioned, aim at getting stronger with good form and over time your intensity levels will increase, they do naturally anyway as you get stronger but you do become more used to it.
    Starting out at that level would be asking for injury and TBH would probably put you off.

    The beauty of this way of training is:

    1) Once you do your first session and work out what weights to use you have a goal to reach for every single session on every single exercise, this is certainly challenging and it is very motivating :)

    2) Once you have established your training routine your gains come VERY quickly :)

    3) You spend less time in the gym so more time with other interests

    Good luck :)

    Nuff said
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2008
  13. Yost

    Yost Valued Member

    I'm recommending that he train each body part more often, but do less each time. The muscle recovers and gets stronger on rest days, obviously. There are 4 in a week.

    Mark Rippetoe recommends adding weight to the bar 3 times a week (every workout), using small increments, in his book Starting Strength. You can see many people who have (or are still) using his program and their results at the Mark Rippetoe Q&A at Strength Mill. I am assuming the OP is a novice, since he is asking questions about weight training on a martial arts forum.

    I would like to note that it is virtually impossible to do a single traditional set of heavy weights and actually feel nauseous and nearly black out. Before this happens, you simply lose the ability to lift that weight. The OP is doing 5x5 (heavy), not sets of 100. In fact, when dealing with maximum strength gains, one should really be looking to limit fatigue as much as possible. Training to failure on any set but the last one is detrimental to the following sets and should be avoided.

    I never said he should do leg extensions - but he didn't ask about exercise selection. Everyone needs to squat.

    I didn't tell him to use a lighter weight, and I didn't tell him to increase his volume. I didn't say anything about loading because the fact that he's doing 5x5 dictates his loading parameters. Furthermore, I recommended that he DECREASE the number of sets he does (both overall daily, and per muscle group per day). I did not recommend that he add another set to progress, I recommended that he adds a small amount of weight to the bar each time he does an exercise.

    You're completely ignoring the role of the Central Nervous System in strength development. As a novice looking to lose weight and gain strength, most of his strength gains will come from improvements to the CNS. This does not require reaching muscular failure.

    I agree that diet is where body composition comes from. Diet properly, OP.

    In regards to the program you recommended...
    1. Your 2 days are horribly unbalanced. One of the days has 5 compound movements, and the other has 1. Day 1 will be significantly more taxing than day 2.
    2. Leg curls and leg extensions are essentially useless to a novice. Same with calf work, unless the OP specifically wants to get bigger calves. If it were me, I'd ditch the curls, too.
    3. 6-10 reps will facilitate more growth I suppose, but 5x5 will make him stronger.
    4. You think that a split is better, but you recommend one day of full-body and another day of just legs. I find this odd.

    I think you totally misunderstood my posts, and disregard many underlying principles of strength training.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2008
  14. tophalf69

    tophalf69 New Member


    TBH I don't think you have any idea about training except what you have read from a book, ones that you quote from and because what I say isn't the same that makes me wrong.

    Please see my avitar, that is me, kinda shows I know my stuff.

    I was 140lbs when I started and am now over 220lbs and in good nick.
    I squat 200kg, deadlift 240kg, bench 180kg, not the strongest in the wolrd but not bad either.
    Oh yeh, I won a bodybuilding show also.

    I disregard nothing, principles are nice on paper and I have followed many. The sets and volume approach is old hat and not as effective.
    I take my training very seriously, as I would with 19yrs of experience and having done so as a business.

    Oh and to note to say it's nearly impossible to black out, I never said I have blacked out, I haven't but I HAVE puked and have been unable to stand after one set. Do you think I do that cold, just after I have walked into the gym, of course not I am fully warmed up, seriously pysched up and ready to haul big weights. TBH it matters not a jot to me if you believe this or not but I do know I am not the only person to have had this happen. Whatever world of of training you live ion you have NEVER ever TAKEN IT TO the limit in the gym otherwise you would know.

    Horribly unbalanced, how about upper body lower body split? Done it tons and it's excellent. As for the other points about the routine, I can't be bothered to justify myself, I know what works because, guess what, I have done it and gained a lot. This guy said he wants to be bigger and stronger!!!

    Please let us see some photos of yourself to illustrate your knowledge and expertise in this area. I trust you must have put on at least 80lbs as I have or more seeing as volume is so effective.

    Reading books and knowing principles of 5x5 and 3 stes of 10 and compound versus isolation etc etc is really nice, squating till you puke isn't but I know what works as I have been there, done it, have the t-shirt and still do it.
    My experience speaks for itself as do my results.
     
  15. NakMuay84

    NakMuay84 Valued Member

    There isn't just one truth in weight lifting... we still DONT KNOW how muscles grow. We have just some hypotesis... the "dual factory theory", the "supercompensation" theory etc... so HIT, HST, Heavy Duty, 5x5....

    saying "i'm big so i'm right" is naive... because there are many big people out there training in very different ways...

    look at Reg Park's 5x5 program:
    http://www.t-nation.com/article/bodybuilding/reg_parks_5x5_program

    i wont say that its the only program we should follow... but look at him!
    [​IMG]

    everything seems to work... and we dont know exatly why.
    so everyone has to choice what is better for himself...
    there is no "golden program" for everyone.
     
  16. Yost

    Yost Valued Member

    Most of my training knowledge comes from books, internet sources, and personal experience. I am a skeptic and I examine my sources thoroughly.

    You are stronger than I am, and you weigh more than I do. But you also have about 17 years of (weight) training on me. Just because something can get you there doesn't mean it's the fastest route.

    For about 1 year I did CrossFit training. The main criticism that most people/organizations have of CrossFit is that they take it too close to the limit. First-time participants are warned of cases of Rhabdomyolysis which can and have occurred in CrossFitters. Rhabdomyolysis can be fatal. I have had many people in my gym question whether or not I am okay after an intense workout. But only while I'm doing energy systems work. Nausea is a direct result of oxygen deficit. When working to develop maximal strength, oxygen deficit isn't even a factor. How you can puke while doing a single straight set of heavy weights is beyond me, since this is primarily an anaerobic alactic activity. Maybe you were ill?

    Including the Deadlift in your "upper body day" makes it a full body day unless you're doing some variation, in which case you should have noted that. They're unbalanced in terms of how taxing they are to the CNS. Your day 1 is horribly taxing, while your day 2 is fairly light (I don't mean in terms of weight, I mean in terms of CNS taxation.) Again, just because it worked for you doesn't mean that it's the most effective way to train. I assume the OP is looking for the most effective way (that one can convey on an internet message board, anyways). One can build up to a 2x bodyweight squat and a 2.4x bodyweight deadlift in much less time than 19 years. You asked for the results of the program that I suggested, but you didn't even look at them. Here is one trainee's results.

    I'm not trying to put on 80 lbs. If I put on 80 lbs how would I pick up girls? Girls like how I look right now. I'm trying to get stronger and improve my conditioning (GPP). I'm not going to post a picture since my goals are not body composition-oriented and we both agreed that body composition is a function of diet. We're talking about programming here.

    Also, for some reason you continue to think that I am advocating some sort of volume-based training program despite the fact that I have specifically stated otherwise numerous times. The only reason that I mention volume is because it is not irrelevant. If I told him to do 30 heavy sets of 5, you would say he was doing too much. Too much what? Too much volume. You can't ignore that, and that's why I mentioned it - I told him to do less. So quite frankly I have absolutely no idea why you continue to think that I'm suggesting some sort of volume-based progression. I suggested that he increase the weight in small increments each time he lifts. I have said this numerous times and you continue to disregard the information.

    I am moderately familiar with 5x5 having done it for a while, but I am not familiar with (and never claimed to be) 3 sets of 10. I have done high-intensity training. But it's not going to get you as strong as real strength-focused work.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2008
  17. corey

    corey New Member

    Three full body workouts in a week is too much! It isnt enough time for recovery. If you are going to do 3day it should go legs(Squats and deads leading the way) Push( bench and milatary press leading the way) and pull( Wide chins and bent over row leading the way). For the record you can puke and even pass out after a set of killer squats(or deads) that is for certain, i think anyone that has hit a big compound leg exercise with major intensity has felt like passing or sick at some point. If you are going for 2 day just do squats with pushs and deads with pulls.

    Out of interest what is the overall goal of the OP ?as this is really the most important thing. There is a big differece in training for size and training to be as explosive as a lump of C4!
     
  18. shitosempei

    shitosempei New Member

    What Cory described is the exact split that I do. I barely have the time , what with work , kids , and karate , so I'm happy when I can hit each body part once a week , with weights.
     
  19. tophalf69

    tophalf69 New Member

    Reg Parg was without a doubt a total legend, a true gentleman, bodybuilding lost a great person when he passed and indeed he was an awsome bodybuilder.

    I wasn't sayin that "I'm big so I'm right", I was saying "it has worked for me (and many others) and I am proof". I also agree that there isn't only one way to train, I didn't say that either. It was when Yost said he disagreed with my principles that I felt I had to defend them because they are my principles that have taken me 19yrs to arrive at, not something I have read or taken from someone else, although reading materials by Mike Mentzer, Dorian Yates and many other books has obviously had some influence in the beginning.
    It just so happens that I have found this to be the most efficient training method for not only myself but also anyone that I have trained, and they have been numerous. I trained one specific guy (sometime in 2001) for six weeks and he openly said that he had never gained so much and that he felt he had wasted his time for the previous 2 1/2 yrs. This doesn't mean it's the only way.

    What I have personally found that with this method of training that anyone can gain. With a more traditional volume approach I have found that individuals seem to need to be more genetically gifted to gain as much. The reason I say this is purely down to numbers. There is a large proportion of people training the old 3 sets of 10 and so on but how many of those people really get there, % wise very few. The people who I have trained or advised who have genuinely stuck to the routines etc have always gained, granted there have been a couple who don't gain as quickly but these are the ones that were seeing no gains following traditional methods so these people were over the moon with their new found, but most of all, measureable progress. It may seem that I am exaggerating but what can I say, every single person I have trained has gained more this way and in some cases much more.

    I am currently training with a guy who has been training over 10yrs. He was looking good with it also but his gains had stopped and he was so despondent that he was thinking of stopping training, he had already taken a few big layoffs due to it and his approach was totally traditional. I have now been training with him for 6 months and everyone (bar none) has said how good he is looking and how much he has gained etc etc. Now I admit that this makes me feel good also, again it proves my training methods in a true practicle and indisputable way.

    I am still learning also, I am not stuck in my ways and am flexible to my approach, my training evolves. About 2 months ago Steve (current training partner) and myself were wondering why our gains had slowed and we were also both looking at a way that we could add a MA session into our routine without too much interference either way (he has also done Thai Boxing). At the time we were on a four way split where our body parts were trained once every eight days. The change we made was to remove one of the weight sessions and to add an MA session instead. Now our rotation is still four way but our body parts now get trained once every eleven days. Even I was surprised by the gains, I couldn't believe the gains that started to come and that is with a MA session also. This has shown both Steve and myself how important recovery is and Steve used to train four days per week every week without fail. He has now broken numerous personal bests and I am getting very close to mine (I have broken a few but I am still recovering from a rotator cuff injury and bi-cep sustained from MA).

    The routines that guys like Reg Park did work, I didn't say they don't at all but these routines go back over 40 yrs now and even though they work IMHO there are better routines out there.

    I struggled with my training when I was younger. Gains were hard to come by, I put on 7lbs in a year and I got disheartened but I stuck at it. Over the next few years I put on maybe another 14 lbs but it was hard going and it was through shear bloody mindedness that I made gains. This was while following a traditional method of training.
    I then went to a Dorian Yates (6 times Mr Olympia) seminar in Newcastle. I was utterly blown away by his principles, logic, gains, literally all of his methodology of training in a very measured way. I bought his book "Blood and Guts", got it signed and shook the guys hand (HUGE forearms!!).

    I have to tell you this was THE turning point for me. I completely changed my training and outlook on recovery and, I kid you not, I gained 42lbs in 12 months and my strength, beyond belief in comparison. Not all of this gain was muscle, but there I was standing at 196lbs, I was completely gobsmacked.

    The one problem I do have with this training is that as you do gain so quickly you get closer to your genetic potential more quickly. This means that although you have gained and are very pleased obviously these gains slow and get increasingly difficult. This is why I have continously modified and tweaked my training to where it is at the moment and even now I still analyse and make alterations be it cadence, exercise order, rest or whatever.

    I hope you can see from the above why I defend my way of training. It is truly bourne from passion, experience and very hard work, and it is genuinely my way.

    Dorian Yates, as far as I am aware the only man to ever reach his genetic limit, he actually started tearing muscles from his bones!!
    Not everyones cup of tea but some shots of Yates:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 21, 2008
  20. tophalf69

    tophalf69 New Member

    For YOST:

    Most of my training knowledge comes from books, internet sources, and personal experience. I am a skeptic and I examine my sources thoroughly.
    Yes so am I and so do I but after 19yrs I am pretty confident in my training

    You are stronger than I am, and you weigh more than I do. But you also have about 17 years of (weight) training on me. Just because something can get you there doesn't mean it's the fastest route.
    Please read above post.

    For about 1 year I did CrossFit training. The main criticism that most people/organizations have of CrossFit is that they take it too close to the limit.
    Not muscular limit/failure during an all out heavy compund exercise though, you know, the type that make a person grow and get stronger.

    First-time participants are warned of cases of Rhabdomyolysis which can and have occurred in CrossFitters.
    AND? What has that got to do with anything? Crossfitting, please..., irrelevant, NOT training for SIZE and STRENGTH as I suggest, clutching at straws heree.

    Rhabdomyolysis can be fatal. I have had many people in my gym question whether or not I am okay after an intense workout.
    Wuppy doo mate, I can get on a stationary bike until I can't breath, proves nothing at all and it won't make me bigger or stronger.

    But only while I'm doing energy systems work.
    EXACTLY, you don't train WEIGHTS hard enough to know!!

    Nausea is a direct result of oxygen deficit.
    Quoting again:rolleyes:

    When working to develop maximal strength, oxygen deficit isn't even a factor.
    Yeh right, cos when doing deadlifts and squats breathing is no bother, again :rolleyes: I know people who have failed large compound exercises not through muscular failure but because their cardio wasn't up to it.

    How you can puke while doing a single straight set of heavy weights is beyond me, since this is primarily an anaerobic alactic activity. Maybe you were ill?
    I can see why it's beyond you!! Oh no, more quoting of literary knowledge! Ill, are you kidding, what every time I have puked in the gym, every time my vision has dimmed and hearing dulled. What about all the other people who it happens to, must be really contagious, especially amongst people who bust their balls in the gym:rolleyes:

    Including the Deadlift in your "upper body day" makes it a full body day unless you're doing some variation, in which case you should have noted that. They're unbalanced in terms of how taxing they are to the CNS. Your day 1 is horribly taxing, while your day 2 is fairly light (I don't mean in terms of weight, I mean in terms of CNS taxation.)
    Oh dear, what would you have him do, not do deadlifts at all? Would you have him deadlift on leg day :eek: Yes the deadlift is a full body exercise and an amazing one at that but it is not as taxing on the legs as a leg day which is why I added it to upper body and then gave him 3 days off to recover. He also then gets 2 days off after legs before going back to deadlift day. It was no accident how I structured the routine and just for you rinfo, doing leg curls and leg extns is excellent for acquiring a mind-muscle connection that isn't so easy from doing a compound exercise. When you have an improved mind muscle connection you have more control over said muscles and you "feel" them more. This in turn helps apply more intensity to a given muscle and DOES help with growth.
    And saying a leg day is light on your "CNC" or in any other way nearly makes me speechless, this statement alone shows a complete lack of knowledge and/or application. I trained legs two days ago and both my training partner and myself nearly puked after squats and leg presses and we were totally wasted afterwards and we did a total of 7 working sets across the whole session I am having trouble walking up and down stairs today and yesterday I ached not only in my legs but also my back and my abs due to the overall stress caused by the squats, that statement is just unbelievable, the FIRST time I have EVER had anyone say that.

    Again, just because it worked for you doesn't mean that it's the most effective way to train.
    Seeing as you haven't tried it you wouldn't know, I have tried MANY ways.

    I assume the OP is looking for the most effective way (that one can convey on an internet message board, anyways).
    Precisely what I am offering for what it is he is asking within the given parameters.

    One can build up to a 2x bodyweight squat and a 2.4x bodyweight deadlift in much less time than 19 years.
    A very Presumptuous comment, I have been in this position for years but my bodyweight and strength has risen together so the % remains nigh on the same from when I have weighed about 180lbs:rolleyes:

    You asked for the results of the program that I suggested, but you didn't even look at them.
    No I didn't, I want to see YOUR results not someone else’s from a book or website, I want to see how much you have improved.

    I'm not trying to put on 80 lbs. If I put on 80 lbs how would I pick up girls?
    Easily if they are light :D
    And to add, I haven't had a problem with women at any point in my training, they quite often like the abs, bis and chest but not exclusively. Some think you are going to be arrogant but as soon as they speak to you, no bother. The only time I have ever seen a woman say yuk was when a guy was on stage in shredded condition and posing but that is the extreme side of bodybuilding and as I have never gone to a nightclub in posing trunks, tanned up, oiled up and pumped up throwing up double bicep shots and the odd lat spread I have never had that reaction. What did you think, I am like a hermit crying into my hands because girls don't like muscles, "my you have big arms, can I squeeze them (with a smile), mind you I think you are gross so don't get the wrong idea young man :rolleyes:, in your dreams mate.

    Girls like how I look right now.
    Not insecure I hope! I am sure they would think you were completely horrible if you were large and muscular, the same woman that say size doesn't matter :rolleyes:

    I'm trying to get stronger and improve my conditioning (GPP). I'm not going to post a picture since my goals are not body composition-oriented and we both agreed that body composition is a function of diet. We're talking about programming here.
    So what qualifies you to advise on gaining muscle and strength if that is not your goal?

    Also, for some reason you continue to think that I am advocating some sort of volume-based training program despite the fact that I have specifically stated otherwise numerous times. The only reason that I mention volume is because it is not irrelevant.
    Indeed it is very relevant, less volume with high intensity gets efficient and fast results.

    If I told him to do 30 heavy sets of 5, you would say he was doing too much. Too much what? Too much volume. You can't ignore that, and that's why I mentioned it - I told him to do less.
    You told him to train all his body parts in one session and do that 3 times per week, this is terrible advise for gaining size and strength and is high volume for each body part and too much unless you train with low intensity in which case your gains will be less as it is the overloading of muscles that makes a person grow NOT the volume. The volume eats into recovery and makes a session harder if you try to train hard and long you have no choice but to back off on the intensity in order to complete the sets where in reality you should be aiming at achieving more OVERLOAD than the previous session. A lot of people "save" themselves for the last set by which time they have use important reserves of energy up completing none maximum sets that don't make you bigger, just use up glycogen.


    So quite frankly I have absolutely no idea why you continue to think that I'm suggesting some sort of volume-based progression. I suggested that he increase the weight in small increments each time he lifts. I have said this numerous times and you continue to disregard the information.
    Ok maybe I misread that bit but THREE times per week for whole body and legs and add weight EVERY SESSION, no way can this be sustained for a long period of time unless adding a few grams of wieght to the bar then I can see no way that your gains will be anything but painfully slow and as soon as the weights get to even being moderate you are straight into overtraining territory again so it's lose lose I'm afraid. So, just to clarify, how many sets per exercise?


    I am moderately familiar with 5x5 having done it for a while, but I am not familiar with (and never claimed to be) 3 sets of 10.
    Ok I mention this over as it is a very traditional approach to traning, my bag, sorry. Mind you 5x5 is high volume and traditional!

    I have done high-intensity training. But it's not going to get you as strong as real strength-focused work.
    You have not done high intensity heavy compound exercises otherwise you would know a lot more about the physiological effects in the real world, or in this case in a real gym. If you claim you have then there is something seriously amiss here. You say it's not going to get me as strong, the whole idea with this training is that you measure you progress by your strength :bang:
    Granted it isn't powerlifting per se and it's not Strongman training either but they are another thing altogther and as previously mentioned, my training is for SIZE via STRENGTH within a bodybuilding repetition range of 6 to 10 (sometimes12).

    Even though this is the case in either 2002 or 2003 (I can't remember) I walked into Ellwoods gym in Hartlepool. It was a Friday afternoon and TBH I hadn't trained at that gym in a long time as I had moved away. Anyway, Eddie asked me if I wanted to take part in a Strongman competition and I said no when he promptly told me it was for charity for a young girl with cancer so I obviously said yes. Then he told me it was on Sunday, two days away :eek:

    Anyway, I took part against some very big seasoned guys and some not so big but still seasoned guys most a lot taller and heavier than me.
    I came joint 1st in the log press and finished about 12th out of a field of I think 20 or so people. I didn't do so well in the anchor drag or car pull due to my body weight and my grip let me down a little but I did get through to the final heat!!

    Not bad for someone who had done no specific training, no fitness training and who was by and large smaller in height and weight to most of an experienced field.

    Don't make statements about my training or the effects of it when you don't know the facts, I think I could have done a lot better had I trained for the event but TBH I have never wanted to do strongman, it is a side effect of the way I train, I am hoping that you can see now the benefits of what I do. :)

    Oh and I realise you are sceptical so, I am not sure, but my mother might have a photo of me in the lineup that was in the local paper. If you need me to I could scan it and put it on here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2008

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