10th planet juijutsu vs. standard BJJ

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by roninmaster, Nov 29, 2009.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The one issue I have with 10th planet is how it's touted as designed for MMA and yet up until pretty recently it's not really lived up to that.
    I remember seeing Gerald Strebendt and being impressive but he got plain old biffed in the face in the UFC.
    Shinya Aoki seems to be having some success with a 10th planet type game (rubber guard) but I'm not sure how directly 10th planet he is?
    Sotiropuous seems on the up but still I don't think the hype has matched the reality.
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    But thats the opposite to what you had said here:

    High percentage submissions/reversals - 28-Jan-2010, 10:47 PM

    Sorry but reading that again just made me laugh! Unless your Shinya Aoki? But then check out what most of Shinya's winning submissions are:
    (clue, its triangle and armbar)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBeWl3vLKJY"]Shinya Aoki "The Baka Survivor" MMA Highlight - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010
  3. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    When did anyone ever get lucky and triangle someone? Especially against Royler Gracie who is one of the best LW grapplers of ALL TIME.

    Seriously, people calling punchs lucky is annoying enough, 'lucky' submissions are a seriously stupid concept.

    I think Eddies stuff is great. People always talk about the Rubber Guard but personally the best thing I've seen read about is his stuff on the half guard. Absolutely brillaint, it transformed my game. Before I was always looking simply to get back to full guard as fast as possible. Now I see it as a great way to get someone back or sweep them. I used what I'd learnt in a competition in the States, took the guys back when he tried to pass and RNCed him, thank you Eddie!
  4. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    How is that opposite to what I said in the other thread? In that thread, I basically listed a bunch of strange things that I usually catch people with. Or did at the time. The post you quoted was basically saying "I usually catch people with strange things while they're escaping orthodox things."

    What exactly is the problem with it anyway? I've never said I don't think fundamentals are important. I replied to a post dismissing unusal techniques as useless against good fundamentals. They're not. Fundamentals are vital, but those that dismiss everything else tend to be easily handled with unusual things, or things that are fundamental to other styles. It's not like anyone is saying "You don't need good fundamentals" or "All you need are gimmicks".
  5. DDale

    DDale Valued Member

    Agreed. Everyone who hasn't tried it to any depth concentrates on the flashy rubber guard and twister stuff whereas the half guard stuff is the really immediately useful and most used stuff.
  6. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    When your fundamentals are good not only do your opponents not see armbars comming, even if they do see them, they can't stop them.

    Eddie Bravo is an overrated nobody, who students have acheived nothing of merit, because 10th Planet offers little else but silly names and a few low % tricks.
  7. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    And of course when your opponent's fundamentals are up to par with yours, they can just as easily spot, counter, or preemptively block them out, just like any technique. When you're wrestling someone who you have any business competing against, innovation and transitions are what usually makes the difference.

    Maybe he is overrated, but he's far from a nobody, and his students regularly achieve significant things, if only to awe people enough that the style spreads like wildfire. Or is he not really overrated?

    There's no need to talk trash about or completely dismiss anyone who is a genuinely good grappler or fighter based on his methods. Like in my first post, that's a good way to get crippled by something you don't respect enough to take proper precautions against. I've seen it plenty of times.
  8. Bomber

    Bomber Valued Member

    Sorry, I've been slightly unprofessional in my assessment of Mr Bravo. It's just I find him very irritating, and just can't anything other than hype and marketing.
  9. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Well I'll agree with ya on that front.

    EDIT: I mean the irritating, hype, and marketing, not the unprofessional part. :p
  10. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    Yea, he beat Royler but he didn't even place in the top three of his weight class at the 2003 ADCC competition, did he?
  11. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    Didn't place at the most prestigious no-gi grappling competition in the world?

    Well, gee. He must be terrible then. ^_-

    He lost in the semi-finals to the eventual champion and came 4th. Not exactly a bad thing to have on the record. To even GET to the ADCC is an achievement that most grapplers would dream about. So...no need to say that he's a failure for not medalling, 'kay? ^_^

    Take care,

    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
    nasd90 likes this.
  12. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    off topic: but exactly how does one go about making to the ADCC?
  13. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    You win the qualifiers for your region. There are two North American, one South American, one Asian, one African, one Australian, and one European. For the European, at least, you have to qualify in your national trials to make it that, you can't just turn up. The rest, you can just turn up. But don't expect to have a fun time of it. @_@

    Hope that helps!

    Take care,

  14. JSun

    JSun Valued Member

    Never said he was a failure. I think some 10th Planet jitz are innovative at the least, but Bravo wouldn't have had a leg to stand on in the way of marketing his system if he hadn't have beaten Royler Gracie. His jiujitsu is way better than his music :evil:

  15. slideyfoot

    slideyfoot Co-Founder of Artemis BJJ

    Bravo's competitive record is pretty respectable. He wasn't a world-beater, but he did pretty well: see his old The Twister DVD if you want to see a summary of his various matches.

    He has excellent marketing, along with the handy free advertising he gets at every UFC thanks to his student Joe Rogan. From what I've seen, he appears to be a competent instructor, and his Mastering the Rubber Guard book is beautifully put together (ignoring the bizarre introduction).

    Nevertheless, he is merely a BJJ black belt who came up with a good angle for selling his product (people love to hear claims like 'revolutionary', whether or not there is any truth to it). Nothing wrong with that, and I applaud him for using what ability he has to make a name for himself. However, there are many far more accomplished instructors I'd want to train with who have produced multiple world champions.

    For example, Royler Gracie at Gracie Humaita (who trained Saulo and Xande Ribeiro, along with many others), Fabio Gurgel and Jacare at Alliance (again, they're responsible for loads of champions, like Marcelo Garcia and Cobrinha), and Carlos Gracie Jr at Gracie Barra (who amongst his vast number of black belts can count Roger Gracie and the Machados).

    Bravo hasn't accomplished anything like that kind of record: his main achievement on the global stage thus far is beating Royler way back in 2003. Neither he nor his students have been able to win anything significant at the international level, though like I said, his competitive record is perfectly respectable. He's also been teaching for a much shorter period than the examples I mentioned above, so there's still time.

    The system he developed around the rubber guard has yet to have a major impact on international BJJ: again, look at the world champions in the years since 2003. How many of them won due to the rubber guard? Roger Gracie's success involved things like getting to mount and securing a cross choke or armbar, while Marcelo Garcia is known for taking the back and locking on a RNC. As ever, solid BJJ basics continue to be the best route to developing good BJJ.

    Similarly in MMA, Bravo has not yet been able to back up his claims: what percentage of UFC champions are mainly known for their use of the rubber guard?

    Perhaps that will change in the years to come, but as of now, Bravo has yet to prove his method of teaching actually produces elite competitors at the highest level. Closest he's come so far, IIRC, is Denny Prokopos winning the no-gi mundials at brown belt, which while a laudable accomplishment is still a good way off the highest level. It will be interesting to see if that changes in the future.
  16. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    The difference between him and them is that he's specifically teaching no-gi. There aren't a lot of quality instructionals that deal specically in no-gi, and a lot of the ones there are simply do the same technique with no-gi as with gi, or simply brush aside any possible differences.

    Eddie specifically works techniques for no-gi, not modified gi ones. Thats why he's special. I know theres others (like Dave Camarillo, or Jeremy Horn) doing the same thing but they haven't received nearly the same level of exposure as Eddie. Or gone out of their way to publicise and popularise their techniques.

    In the gi Royler would have absolutely destroyed him, it was no-gi Eddie and triangled him. That basically sums it up.:)
  17. slideyfoot

    slideyfoot Co-Founder of Artemis BJJ

    Marcelo Garcia, Robert Drysdale, Robson Moura, Saulo Ribeiro...I could go on. I'd say that is quite a few. The difference is Bravo has successfully pushed the "I'm a revolutionary, because I don't use the gi" angle: it does not make for a higher quality product, merely a more effective marketing plan.

    You could even bring up Josh Barnett, as he is a far higher level competitor than Bravo. He didn't just beat one top guy once, but managed to win world titles last year in both gi and nogi. This is after years of promoting catch wrestling and no-gi.

    Then there is the usual point that Bravo may not use the jacket, but he insists on wearing gi pants, knee sleeves etc for friction.

    That right there is the real difference: Bravo was good at marketing his system. THAT is why you've heard of him, not because he is the best teacher or competitor in the world.

    However, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Like I said, he made the most of what he had, and I applaud him for his success.

    Heh - it really doesn't. If Eddie had gone on to dominate the rest of the competition, or even dominate Royler (a win is a win, but there is a difference between controlling the whole match then submitting, and submitting against the run of play) then you might have a point. Beating an excellent competitor once is certainly something to be proud of, but the top level guys are constantly competing against other top level guys, and beating them. That is what makes them top level guys.

    As is so often mentioned, Leo Vieira destroyed Bravo in the next match, and I believe Royler was way ahead on points (though I'd have to check).
  18. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    Just a quick clarification, he didn't win a world title in gi. It was a local/regional competition, but he did basically beat the current world champion at middle-heavyweight and a former world bronze medallist at middleweight, so although he did compete on that level, he's not a world-level gi champion. Yet. ^_-

    He is a Black Belt No-Gi World Champion though, so...yep, the boy has done well for himself. ^_^

    Take care,

  19. slideyfoot

    slideyfoot Co-Founder of Artemis BJJ

    Heh - yep, my bad. Realised that later on: that's what I get for posting at 4am drugged up on Lemsip. :p

    There was an interview with Draculino recently where he talks about Eddie Bravo. So, if you're looking for the BJJ black belt opinion, go [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVcTrUCqHRE]here[/ame].
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  20. Silver Dragons

    Silver Dragons Valued Member

    People should take 10th planet techniques as complements to THEIR game.

    No one should try to emulate someone elses game....its counter to everything jiu jitsu....in order to reach your peak you must develop your own style that fits your qualities

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