To add to what Unknown has said, "The liver is related to the holes of the eyes, ..." 素問 SuWen 진기 JinKi 眞氣 True Energy at the chest is given to each of the 5 Eum organs for its own use, some is passed along to the channel system for circulation and the remainder is stored in the kidneys as 정기 JeongKi 怔氣 Fear Energy which is a reservoir of energy available in fight or flight situations. The state of one's 정기 JeongKi 怔氣 Fear Energy can be seen in the eyes when observed from the side. Sparkling, clear animated eyes indicate an ample supply of 정기 JeongKi 怔氣 Fear Energy while lack thereof suggest someone prone to sudden infections.
Post #291 seems like a personal view. FWIW, attributing a "TCM-label" to the eyes regarding health would be okay if the interpretation was correct, but unfortunately, it does not jibe. Sources: Ergil, MC., & Ergil, KV., (2009): "Pocket Atlas of Chinese Medicine" Flaws, B., & Finney, D., (1996): "A handbook of TCM patterns & their treatments" Rosenfarb, A., & Grossman, M., (2007): "Healing your eyes with Chinese medicine" The tie to "eyes bright and clear" to good health comes from a food and nutrition textbook for dieticians and nutritionists working with kids (Source). Source: Ensminger, A., "Foods & nutrition encyclopedia" Vol 1.
"Opinions are related to the holes of the A$$,..."- Obewan SuWen, Ha! I have seen Tatu look into the sky and yell...The Plane! The Plane! Ha Ha Ha... Ugh Sorry!
Except that that book was not published until 1994 while the concept of determining the state of specific types of Ki and health in the eyes preceed that book. Title Foods & nutrition encyclopedia, Volume 1 Author Audrey H. Ensminger Editor Audrey H. Ensminger Edition 2 Publisher CRC Press, 1994 ISBN 0849389801, 9780849389801 Length 1208 pages Subjects Medical / Nutrition
I don't know vegasmichelle, post 291 seems about the best written definition of this topic I've ever seen in writing, and it matches what my instructor tells me also, are you saying you have a better explanation of the subject matter? If you do I would love to hear it
That nutrition text is just a modern version in use today...there are previous texts out there. In any case, you are attempting to insert the nature of Ki into this discussion...to which, if you are a believer in Ki...well, lets just say I have been there, done that. Because some folks will argue not just the existence of Ki but also the "age" of it as well...LOL. Is it as old as life? BTDT. Don't get me wrong there...an eye examination can tell you tons about a person's health. This thought is NOT limited to TCM alone. Even in western medicine, we can see jaundice, blue sclera, pale MM, copper-wiring, styes etc etc etc. But in TCM, the idea is to balance the imbalance. The meaning of "clear and bright" is lost in actual and theoretical practice. In TCM, we use the "5 element correspondence of the eye" to determine health. They are: ELEMENT-----ORGAN-----------COLOR-----EYE STRUCTURE FIRE-----Heart/Small Bowel-----Red--------Inner Canthus EARTH---Spleen/Pancreas------Yellow------Eyelids/Aqueous METAL---Lung/Large Bowel------White------Sclera/Cornea WATER---Kidney/Bladder--------Black-------Pupil/Macula/Retina WOOD----Liver/Gall Bladder-----Blue/Green---Iris/Eye muscles. So while post #291 might seem like a plausible explanation, it is based upon one person's POV, which incidentally, doesn't jibe fully with TCM teachings about the eye. Incidentally, there is a danger to a "bright and clear" reliance...as folks who have an Iron Deficiency anemia have extremely "bright and clear" eyes...but can actually be bleeding internally. Vegans are an entire population of people who are susceptible to iron deficiency if they aren't careful. They also have unusually bright and clear eyes.
Ok, I get that you are saying that tcm is more complex than represented but we are talking about the hyung bup and how they are taught? Now if someone, be it unknown or kuk suh nym tells me bright and clear eyes are a sign of good health am I to split hairs about weirdos that are anemic cuase they refuse to pit iron in their bodies? We were talking about the meaning behind the parts of the principle and while I thank you for educating me about something I know little about and you know loads, taken that far everything has an exception, but as a general rule other than anemia then bright and clear eyes are generally considered a sign of good health? What I am getting at is that although that is a simplified version of tcm, isnt it picking at it just to say its wrong instead of saying its generally right but here are the exceptions? I am extremely curious about tcm.vegasmichelle and don't get me wrong I was a vegetarian for some years of my life but I still had dairy and such because of the need for.iron and calcium especially as someone who was a laborer. BTW how long is a standard school for.tcm?
Actually, i'm not inserting anything (Ki) into the theory of acupuncture that has not been the basis of it since, at least in existing documentation, its discussion in the HuángDì NèiJīng 黄帝内经 Yellow Emporer's Inner Classic circa 1st - 3rd century BCE. In all honesty, I cannot even conceive how one can speak of acupuncture without speaking of Ki.
EM, I hear you about the rule and the exception. I wouldn't have mentioned anything if that were the case. Bright and clear eyes is not a generalization for good health without other factors...so the EXCEPTION is the interpretation that it means good health...the RULE is that the eyes are an incomplete source of health information. Aside from IDA, I can name atleast 20 other conditions with bright and clear eyes...and the eye isn't even my specialty! (so you can only imagine how many more conditions a specialist can name!) FWIW, I think a well organized curriculum like KS should not depend on exceptions to the rule to dictate what hyung bup means. But then again, if IHS holds the same interpretation as post #291 (which, is NOT established clearly as of yet as there is some confusion)...I would say that the interpretation is no longer one person's POV, rather, the intent of WKSA. That being said, TCM in practice is a different thing altogether. As for TCM schools...most schools in the US are about 4 years post college. In other countries, it is a 6 year program. There are also accelerated programs for those who hold a western doctorate.
If you'd like, I can give you his private cell phone number so you can call him up and discuss it. Would that help clear up your doubts?
All that aside I would like to mention that this discussion is fairly interesting regardless, anytime I.cam .learn something is a good day. We have been working our forms.and hyung bup and man, ill tell you just when I was feeling good about myself doimg from ki cho hyung thru paek ki hyung on both sides all directions I got the serious critique the other day, and don't.get me wrong, I'm not salty, and I sure felt even better when I was thru with everything up to gum myu hyung and the guy next to me was still doing ki cho hyung over and over, lol, but the hyung bup does play an integral part in training and having an instructor that understands it and can make even the smallest of corrections is key, and fun since you can't see yourself making those mistakes. Then I got to watch others and had to explain what I was seeing and what was compromised, so as to learn to better be able to analyze and critique others. BTW my point wasn't Chinese medicine and its intricacies it was the tearing apart of an informative discussion for people who are interested in the information as taught, when I asked for a better explanation I was talking about the principles of forms.and I thought you were a member of the wksa, and had input into the principles as the wksa teaches them sorry if I wasn't clear but this kind of derailment is exactly what Bruce simms was referring to every time the chaos subsides and someone is sharing actual information as it pertains to the subject matter
Hold on there. It was Bruce who asked the question regarding source (post #289)! If TCM was never brought up in the 1st place to describe the idea of EYES in hyung bup...then that is a different story. However, when someone gives their interpretation, buttressing it with established eastern medicine (to perhaps give it more weight/merit?), then an examination of that connection is fair and completely related. Notice that I am not commenting about right versus wrong...I am trying to answer post #289. In short, is the hyung bup material: 1) well established, documented and in agreement with outside sources? or 2) is the material just a WKSA POV? or 3) is the material just ONE person's interpretation/understanding on the matter? I attempted source material to show that it is not #1. As a WKSA member, if #2 were the case, I think us WKSA folks would be fine with it. As long as IHS is teaching it the way he wants to teach it in his art...fine. But in this case, it looks like it is #3. Until #3 can be proven to be the same as #2...and not just an interpretation of it, it remains an unknown.
But i asked as a member of the organization what have been taught about hyung bup, not wether you have personal issue with believing wether or not you believe it was what was taught or an interpretation/distortion of what was taught, other than the reference to the eyes bright you side stepped the whole topic. What is your understanding of the priciples of forms? What have you been taught?
What are you talking about? It's a very systematic thing to first consider the source. Then consider the content. Then use it as application when called for. Why are you trying to derail the topic by not allowing for this natural progression? Being that we are both WKSA, I am sure we both have seen the WKSA Black Belt Handbook (2011 Version) and our respective instructors have touched upon the material somewhat. Look on page 29. I take that for face value and personally don't read TCM into it. When we break boards, some people believe that they are harnessing ki to enhance their strikes...while I tend not to read too much into my ki, your ki, our ki...rather, I look for correct body positioning, correct movements and good old practice practice practice.
Ok....before we get very KUK SOOL and start having to explain/defend one's self, can I just make sure that the "health" we are talking about is Physical rather than Mental? BTW: Its been a while since the TCM discussion on another thread, but, FWIW the copy of CHEN Xin's book I purchased recently has some rather interesting diagrams of the meridians with each point identified in Chinese. I thought it would make for an interesting adjunct for whoever was in the fore of that discussion since the application is directly to a MA. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
It's okay vm, never mind, I wasn't trying to create chaos just ask you what you had been taught, my experience is that the handbooks and textbooks never provide all the details, and that is a persons instructor provides the rest. I guess I'm mistaken, lol. Have a nice evening.
Right now, D, I am probably the last person to have an opinion on the subject. Since I do not practice KS I am strictly working to understand. About the only connection I might have with what is currently under discussion is our practice of PAL DAN KUM. In that case there is about as direct a connection between TCM and physical practice as I know for a Korean venue. In that case, the manner in which the body motions related to the facilitation of KI was vague at best. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
I don't disagree with you there. For me, I temper alot of the concepts with outside knowledge. I have a feeling many of the instructors try to pass down what they have been taught. I'm sure you have heard of "the telephone game" or a variation of it...where person#1 whispers something to person#2. Then, person#2 whispers to person#3...and so on. Inevitably, there is some degradation and alot is misconstrued and misinterpreted. That is why I said perhaps we should look back at the source handbook. The franchising also helps to create a uniformity as well...or atleast make an honest attempt at it. Another thing that is a concern is that there may be a distorting of what was MEANT and what was actually SAID. Confounding this is the fact that IHS doesn't have complete control of the English language. Please don't get me wrong, he can be quite clever and can playfully turn words but English is his 2nd language and I don't think anyone disputes this. I actually side with D2 in his practical approach. I also tend to give IHS the benefit of the doubt on the matter and while not automatically attributing TCM concepts to him (I'm not able to read minds...I don't know why others think they can! Perhaps they have mind-reading capabilities? IDK.). For me, bright and clear eyes can mean alert, healthy enough to be aware and absorb all aspects of the situation (including one's own body AND surroundings), discerning enough to make balanced decisions and clear enough to assess the situation. Does this sound like TCM to you? I suppose it may for some, but for me, no. FYI, a western approach would probably tie in nicer...as in EYES: cranial nerves II, III, IV and VI...both motor and sensory.
