1-5 dahn techniques?

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by snyderkv, Sep 20, 2010.

  1. snyderkv

    snyderkv Valued Member

    I'm soon to start KSW but was interested in finding out what type of locks they teach in the later belts. I heard 2nd degree starts leg throws/locks but what does 3rd-5th degree focus on? I'm also interested to know when they start going more into ground/grapling/locks.

    Thanks
     
  2. SeongIn

    SeongIn Banned Banned


    Umm, that's a bit of the cart before the horse. Perhaps focusing on 1st Dan requirements would be more relevent to your training.
     
  3. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    You might be better to go train at one of Erik Paulson's CSW schools, by the sound of your primary interest in the martial arts.
     
  4. snyderkv

    snyderkv Valued Member

    Seon,

    Would you blindly commit yourself to a martial art that you didn't know what they were teaching or don't beleive in? I'm trying to get a feel of what I will be learning so I can determine whether or not I'll continue training in that style.

    I checked out Eriks site. That looks awsome. Only twice a week though so I will definately have time for both being that I will be unempoyed for a year or so.

    Thanks for the response.

    If anyone else can answer my questions I will definately be checking this thread. Thanks in advance.
     
  5. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    Hi Snyderkv
    And welcome to the crazy world of MAP!
    The syllabus for KSW is usually published on their web site (http://www.kuksoolwon.com/site/about-kuk-sool-won/testing-requirement-chart) although the links seem to have got a bit mixed up at the moment. I should also point out that there are many schools teaching Kuk Sool who are not members of the WKSA and they are also worth checking out depending upon where you live.
    The majority of the syllabus is taught below 3rd dahn with something like 226 techniques to 1st dahn and another 150 or so to second but then only about 40 for 3rd 30 for 4th and 20 for 5th. (Apologies if I got the numbers wrong) Other organisations may arrange the techniques differently and teach some additional or maybe fewer techniques than the WKSA.
    Your future instructor can no doubt fill you in with the details of what all these techniques actualy are. But the most imnportnat thing for you is to find out how they are taught and practised. Schools vary a lot depending upon the view and experience of the instructors. You may simply learn the techniques from stance and pactise them one at a time or you may get involved in free sparring using the whole range of techniques plus striking and blocking.
    The 1st and 2nd dahn syllabus contain plenty to work with and many techniques taught from standing can also be adpated to groundwork. It all depends, on who is teaching.
    Watch a few lessons before you commit yourself.
    I personally wouldnt suggest learning two different styles at the same time from scratch though. Its not a question of how many lessons you attend but how much time you spend practising. Better to get a good grounding in one system first and then add to your skills by cross training IMO. Plus if you are not working there may be financial considerations...
    In any event, have fun!
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  6. snyderkv

    snyderkv Valued Member

    Thanks

    Thanks for the response KIWEST,

    So basically, the meat of the art stops at 2nd degree? That piece of information is what I needed to know in order formulate a goal or stopping point before cross training. I am a little confused though, I heard there was over 3000 techniques in KSW?

    The reason for cross training was that the instructors I have emailed are limited to how much they can train due to family and or WKSA rules exc. Like for instance, I was told by the WKSA that I can start my black belt training in 1 year however, taking the 6 quarterly tests to receive black belt will take another 1.5 years for a totall of 2.5 years to BB. That is assuming a weak 2 hours per day schedule. Being unemployed, I could devote a good 6 hours per day in class. It's what I saved up for :)

    These non WKSA kuk sool won schools, are they bound to the quarterly waiting period for BB tests?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  7. KIWEST

    KIWEST Revalued Mapper

    I heard that about the 3000 techniques too! LOL

    I think that includes all the strikes, blocks and falls etc. Either that or there is a HUGE amount of material that seems to be taught to noone!
    As for the "Meat", well some would argue that 3rd dahn is where the real learning starts ie application of techniques etc. And there IS a lot more to learning MA than just learning new techniques.
    NON WKSA are schools are bound to nothing, unless they belong to an organisation which "binds" them.
    I have heard of one org which apparently asks you only to do a single test for 1st dahn after reaching DBN. But they DO fail a very high percentage of candidates. Plus it may take longer to reach the DBN level in the first place. I always though that to call someone a Back Belt Candidate after a little more than a year was stretching it a bit. But then at my local DIY store just about everyone is a Trainee Manager!
    A decent org should IMO reward extra effort with quicker promotion, if you are ready for it. But thats just my opinion. Not all on here would agree with that!
    But don't just take my word for things about the WKSA. I only made SBN before jumping ship, so there will be many things that I dont know!
    Actually, it used to be 8 quarterly tests, not 6..have they changed that back again?
    Plus, the "norm" is usually closer to 3 1/2 to 4 years to BB maybe much longer.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  8. snyderkv

    snyderkv Valued Member

    I was told a minimum of 6 tests by a San Francisco instructor who spoke to me on behalf of the WKSA. I don't know what the exceptions are or if that was accurate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  9. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Hi, snyderkv.

    Everything that KIWEST has told you, is pretty much how I see things too. The difference between 6 & 8 tests would equate to 6 months taking the quarterly aspect into account (i.e. one test every 3 months). That may not be such a substantial factor to the average student who'll take 3-5 years getting their BB, but for someone like yourself who's on a mission to accomplish it in as little time as possible (but righteously, by putting in a FULL-TIME effort), such nonsense could be a deciding factor NOT to join. Making such an assumption that the guy you spoke with wasn't mixed up, is a precarious undertaking IMO. I say this because the last thing I heard before choosing to leave WKSA (which was fairly recent, BTW), was that it was 6 tests for all dan-ranks EXCEPT chodan; the 1st degree requires 8 tests AFAIK.

    FWIW, the WKSA has always stipulated exceptions to the number of required tests, but such exceptions are left up to the sole discretion of the grandmaster. I can't say for certain but from my past experiences, you would need to align yourself with a trusted high-ranking instructor who would be willing to *go to bat* for you in pleading your case, or else there would be no way to circumvent the "minimum" number of tests. Even then, the grandmaster follows an "unwritten" rule of a 3-test minimum which I have witnessed him breaking very seldom indeed (you could count the number of times on one hand with more than one finger unused). And even when there are official BB tests/gradings scheduled less than 3 months apart, the general rule is that the extra occasion is to be used only as a make-up test for a missed opportunity (due to illness, for example) or as a substitute for an instance where more higher ranked masters (or the GM himself) weren't present. So "doubling up" as it were using such an occasion, isn't usually permitted.

    I'm not trying to put you off from going with a WKSA school, but it sounds like you have some definite goals outlined and you need precise information to aid you in the decision-making process. If you are located in California, then consider yourself lucky, since AFAIK many of the non-Won kuk-sool dojangs happen to be located there. Being a smaller operation than WKSA has become, they may be more flexible in accommodating your desire to progress at a quicker pace than normal.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  10. snyderkv

    snyderkv Valued Member

    KJN, thanks for the advice. I do happen to be in SoCal.
     
  11. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Then I suggest contacting Liam O'Connor (aka: MAPer, Ki_Power), who's located in San Diego. Even if you're closer to LA, contacting Liam is still my suggestion since IDK of any non-Won instructors who are located in the *city of angels*. Being situated in SoCal, he just might. :cool:

    Of course, there are some WKSA schools near LA, and one of the school owners is also reputed to be a MAPer as well, although he never officially outed himself (I'm alluding to the suspicion that Dragonkarma is Gene Gause, of which there's no actual proof). If not mistaken, some of master Gause's students have also opened some schools in the LA area recently, so it's worth checking that out as well.

    I also knew a very talented 3rd dahn named Joe (sorry, don't recall his last name), who was a cop working vice for LAPD, that has dropped off the WKSA grid. If he's still around and you can locate him, he might be open to the idea of giving private lessons, but understand that this is sheer speculation on my part (merely trying to give you as much useful info as I can ;)).
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  12. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    *creepy* double post - deleted


    (must be that pesky Chuck Norris that Saz keeps referring to) ;) :jester: :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  13. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Can I ask why you have a leaning towards KSW in the first place? Perhaps there is a school around the corner from where you live? Some other reason?

    It strikes me like you're a person who values what is being taught and solid training with solid practice. For these type of people....you have to realize that rank and skill are NOT commensurate. What I mean by that is...people only seem to be looking at the syllabus in determining what you will know. But the reality is that the school owner can teach you to a level s/he wishes. The published syllabus you may see are more like MINIMUM techniques/forms needed to test for and promote to a certain belt. However, for someone more dedicated, I have seen instructors teach more stuff (meaning, just because you are a 1st degree...if you're very dedicated and put the hours in...and if your instructor is willing....you might be shown 2nd or 3rd degree material in advance). Indeed, there are folks out there that know material above their current belt-level, there are people who only know material to their belt level...and unfortunately, there are people who shouldn't even be at their current belt!

    In SoCal, I'd suggest you check out Master Gause's school and the schools of his students. Master Gause has firsthand experience with KSW dating back to the early-mid 1970s...so 35-40 years in...nearly double anyone else in SoCal.

    If you're checking out other schools...ever think of AMMS (http://mma-losangeles.com/Home.html)? Its a MMA school...but it's run by a Hapkido guy.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
  14. snyderkv

    snyderkv Valued Member

    Michelle,

    Thanks for the post. I don't have a good answer for you but in short, it diversifies my life and opens up doors. Two examples, joint lock type martial arts make for an easier transition into the acupuncture field, or could own a school and develope your own style, write a book exc, who knows. Both make for a good supplimental retirement income. I do have untapped physical talent too so it would be a good pair. My desk job doesn't help. Infact I skipped the gym today to write this.
     
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    That's too many "if's" if you ask me, especially considering the typical structure that's outlined for most MA organizations such as WKSA. Better to shoot straight from the hip, ask if your needs can be accommodated, and get your answer up front.

    Besides, snyderkv, if your intent is to open a dojang later on down the road, then knowing the material without having acquired the rank within the prescribed MA organization, won't work unless you're okay with going off to open your own establishment, separate from said organization.

    Not too many instructors (especially within the WKSA) are going to continue teaching you stuff if you do decide to go your own way. FWIW
     
  16. snyderkv

    snyderkv Valued Member

    KJN,

    I didn't say I wanted to start my own Dojo. I said this is one of the many doors that open when you study martial arts, including acupuncture, security exc. All those easy going post retirement jobs.
     
  17. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    The question should not be "1st - 5th" it should be "White Belt - 9th Degree Black Belt". Why? Because many Kuk Sool schools and systems, though they say they have material past 5th Dahn, actually do not. Not even all of them have the Herbal Medicines and Acupressure/Acupuncture that some people look foreward to. So, what will be waiting for you at Master Level? Just another title or actual knowledge over the art? More emphasis on patience and practicing white belt, or life and death techniques? That is my question when looking at any new art.
     
  18. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member

    Having been a student of Master Gause for a good numbers years (on and off) I can say that his students usually only test 2 times, which is intended and should be taken as a testiment to his teaching ability. Now I'm talking about a period from about 93 to 00 when I was around. I was one of the few that didn't promote on the 2nd test, and although I could never find someone to tell me why I failed and everyone else passed, I suspect it was due to my prior association with Master Sims who was giving the test. I don't think I met his expectations and/or somehow I let him down. That all being said, I was promoted this year after only 2 tests, I didn't test this year but was given a special promotion by Kuk Sa Nim himself.
     
  19. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Congratulations, Xanth-areeno! You caught me in the middle of a whopping exaggeration. But considering the 1000's that have promoted to chodan in KSW, does it really matter whether the number that managed to do so while taking fewer than 3 tests is 5, 20, 50, or some other smallish figure that wouldn't alter the resulting ratio in a significant way?

    But my case for the number of people being counted on one hand DOES hold true if stating it for those who promoted after taking only ONE test. If you know of anyone that falls into that group, then round them up so we can have a reunion, okay?
     
  20. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member

    Sounds like you have case of the Mondays!, hope it turns out better for you as the day goes on.:jester:
     

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