I have just watched the DVD as above, and I am a little confused/surprised, all the attacks were either wrist grabs or lapel grabs and only one tame attempt at a kick attack. I was under the impression rightly or wrongly that there is a lot more "realistic" attack and defence (punches and kicks) in this style. Or have I missed something ? Enlightenment please from my learned bretheren Brian
well i guess you have to ask your self how realistic you want things to be? Now if you wish to train realisticly for self defence then I guess we could just all go get knives and start stabbing you until you figure out that's a bad thing. But that wouldn't be much use. So far as realistic attacks go, other than a good strong attack I'm always a bit confused as to what people are expecting. Preciouse few people would last very long in martial arts if they were expected to take or deliver full on bare knuckle punches to their training partners faces. Now you also have to remember training takes place 2 or three nights a week normally for 1 to 3 hours per night. The way I see it learning to deal with the pressure of the situation is far more important than anything else. And for me that is what the style of Aikido I practice really focuses on (Ki Aikido). For me that is what is meant by the phrase "mind and body unified". I take this approach because the instant you panic really is the moment you lose. During my 3rd dan examination I had to deal with amongst other things an eight dan grades attacking me in short order, at random and from any direction using any attack they pleased. To make things just that little bit harder I also had one restriction on me. I wasn't allowed to strike. So atemi weren't allowed to conncet and kicks obviousley were counted out too. I also had to perform eight defences against a live tanto. If proof were needed that my uke was attacking true, ie. he was really trying to stab me, he got so close he peirced three pleates in my hakama. Incidently the technique was not stopped. I carried on and completed the technique without blinking once. It's taken just short of nine years to get this far in my training. As far as I'm concerned Aikido is as realistic as it needs to be.
Hi Croc - What DVD???????? There is no link or description I can see. Forgive what follows as I have no clue what this thread is about. In case it's supposed to be Shudokan - the Shudokan school I trained in with Eddie Stratton uses full on punches and kicks and, at 1st Dan level, random rapid live tanto attacks as part of the grading - not as forms or a set number of defences but as (one of several sessions of) freestyle where anything goes - uke does whatever they want. Anyone whose technique fails gets hurt, usually cut, very occasionally stabbed. This is at high speed for many minutes with no recovery time between sessions. Uke is usually 3rd dan or above and highly skilled in multiple rapid attacks. They are briefed to 'bring tori close to death' and I can vouch that anyone grading at 1st Dan or above knows there is a realisitic risk of death or serious injury from the live tanto session. MA Insurance, jobs, wives & families are not an issue - you go for the grading knowing you may end up badly injured or worse - willingly and with confidence - or you don't grade! This IS a 'martial art - and I know many will say that this is not the way to train/we have jobs and families/nobody really attacks 'full on' - but I can assure you that Shudokan was that animal expression of Aikido in its most martial form. Currently, the organisation has moved on, and Ken Robson still runs an organisation which encompasses that martial vision. He is a former Hurricane Fighter Pilot, survival and military combat trainer for the RAF. Gradings with him and Eddie Stratton around were not amateur MA 'training' but a real test of skill against lethal attacks. I can't see the point in anything less as a grading for a 'martial' art. Join in and have fun by all means if that's your aim, but if you want to know if you are a skilled martial artist, you must try facing potentially lethal attacks IMHO. There's much talk of 'street effectiveness' but in my experience bozos on the street are far less skilled and need a very different response - sometimes verbal is enough, or disarming/restraint, or if all else fails, damage. Shudokan was born alongside unarmed combat, as its senior instructors (Thamby Rajay, Eddie Stratton) learned not only from Shioda etc but in contexts as varied as the brothel districts of Malaysia (as bouncers facing machettes etc) and the British military in combat. Many are still door staff etc. This stuff works. I believe Yoshinkan, from which Shudokan is derived, also has a reputation for effectiveness, e.g. amongst the Tokyo Riot Police. Both me and my best training buddy at 1st Dan gradings had very close encounters with a tanto near to our heads - he got cut and bled very decorously, I got lucky. One guy we had over from Poland spliced his hand from wrist to fingers while making a stupid block to a stab to the gut - that's when you know uke really has made a lethal attack you need to defend against and you have a worthy test of a Dan grade. (No, the Polish guy should not have been grading, but he insisted!) There are also Shudokan videos of demos showing fast effective defences against a chain, baseball bat, jo, bokken, tanto, katana (live) etc. We were taught to ignore the weapon itself, treat it as an extension of the arm and simply adapt our timing, distance etc. 'No mind' zen has its ultimate test in this - fear should be absent as far as possible. 5-7 years of hard training should mean that one is successful but still learning! As for bare knuckle attacks, Aikiwolfie: - yes, EVERY senior grade should receive attacks that would cause damage if not dealt with properly, or uke is not really helping him to make progress. Our school would deliver these as a matter of course - and yes, people get hurt (e.g. I once had a 4th Kyu Tori who forgot what defence he was supposed to make and smacked me so hard my bottom front teeth cut right through below my lip and I found I had 2 mouths! Beginnners ARE a different issue, and cause most of the injuries IMHO. I remember the story of O Sensei who, when old and 'ill' punished a Uke for a weak attack (trying to allow for O Sensei's illness) by breaking his arm - now that's 'martial' IMHO. Is this DVD Shudokan or Yoshinkan or what? what IS this thread about?
kiaki This is the DVD I got http://www.martialart-superstore.co.uk/ishop/966/shopscr1112.html near the bottom of the page right hand side. Brian
While kiaiki sobers up I think I should just clarafie. Croc kiaiki says it's definately more realistic and there are full on bare knuckle punches and kicks as well as live tanto and katana for dan grades. Is that realistic enough? *Hands kiaiki some very strong coffee .... so strong it's illegal* :bang:
aikiwolfie Seriously realistic enough Many congrats on your passing your 3rd dan I would be very happy just to get to 1st Dan, passing may be another story. This young (tongue firmly in cheek) grasshopper has much to learn
Croc, Iam not a Yoshinkan stylist but the attacks that are used in most Aiki systems use traditional Japanese attacks. Wrist graps were used in stop a swordman drawing his sword. Tomiki sensei when developing the Kodokan Goshing jutsu Kata in 1956 brought in some modern attacks from Kick punches and various grabs. Although this kata has been adopted by Kodokan Judo most of the techniques used are Aikido. As stated in one of the former posts the Tokyo riot police are sent to the Yoshinkan to study Aikido and the Osaka police are sent to the Shodokan (Tomiki Style) to study. I would assume that both Hombu do not teach pure Aikido syllabus to the police but use systems based on policing (Taiho-Jutsu) Shihan Nariyama has over the past few years developed the Goshin Ho system this use some modern types of attack. When I took my Godan 5th Dan exam under the EAA/JAA in 1997 the Goshin Ho was one of the requirements we had to demonstrate this with meaning. View Aiki for what it is most styles use the same types of attack. At my Dojo we teach students how to punch and kick and Judo ground work we are lucky in our membership we have Dan grades un Uechi Ryu Karate, Shotokan, and Judo. Just accept that most Aikidoka cant kick that well but how many karateka can do Kote gaeshi, Ude gaeshi whatever. If you want all these other thing in then Aiki is not for you. All I seem to read in this map forum is Aikidoka defending why this is done in Aikido and why that is done in Aikido. Speaking for myself having competed at international level I know what works and does not work when facing an apponant that does not want to comply (Shai) Add atemi waza pressure points and ground work I know that I can control Mr Average. I used to work on the doors for a while not something that I am proud of but at that time three small kids Wife and mortgage needs must. from this experience I learnt that most punters couldn't fight well. I adapted my Aiki for this situation one of most affective techniques that I used was a variation of gyaku gamae ate to the forehead drops your opponant like a stone without causing any damage. I am not going to make out that Aikido is the best system of self defence like all arts there are limitations to it. I practise Tomiki Aikido because it is has something to offer me throughout my life. When young competition ( enjoyed the challenge) Now 44 coming up to 45 Various Kata (deeper side to aikido) See I dont care what others think I enjoy practising Aikido as much now as when I was 14 years of age. It does it for me and that all what matters to me. Sorry for the rant.
Ah, Yoshinkan - yup, Shudokan was derived from (and originally the UK origin of) Yoshinkan - Eddie had Shioda's blessing, I was told - to introduce Yoshinkan to the UK, but politics and money soon caused a split. Can't really comment but I have seen some Yoshinkan where they have, for example a number of individual attacks during a grading but don't have the continuous 'jiyuwaza' freestyle of Shudokan. Sorry if I rambled earlier, but I only visit MAP occasionally, so tend to make one long posting rather than a proper 'conversation'.
"Proper conversation" Now there's a concept we could try. Thanks for the compliment Croc. If you train reguarly and honestly I'm sure you'll reach 1st dan with no major problems. One of our 1st dans is in his 50s and only passed about a year ago. So it can be done. Good luck with the training.
Well done wolfie on passing your Sandan, I think looking back at my own Aikido study 3rd Dan was the level that it really started to come together through years of good hard training. I believe that the learning process in Aikido never ends untill we make or final journey in a pine box. I trained with my instructor up to Godan 5th Dan Level on a weekly basis untill she retired to Australia. Croc, as wolfie said in his last post you will make shodan if you train as regular as possible. Veiw Aikido a lifetime study at 14 when I started over thirty years ago I did not think that I would still be practising now, the name of the game is keep at it. Big small you can do it. Iam not a big man 5'9'' around 13 stone ish. My Instructor who hold the rank of 7th Dan Aikido JAA 7th Dan IaidoZNKR 7th Dan Jodo ZNKR is a small woman of around 5 foot.
What is an average time to get to 1st Dan,(and don't anyone say how longs a piece of string ) 3, 4, 5. yrs and yes I know it will depend on the person just looking for a rule of thumb, ball park estimate
The answer to the question "how long to shodan?" is a bit of a non starter IMHO I consider kyu grades (and including shodan) as a period of apprenticeship. Needless to say we never actually stop learning however, the first six kyu grades illustrate to me as an instructor the dedication and 'worth' of the student. Given the small (realistic) number of grades involved in aikido anyway, if a student were to spend just one year between each of the 6 kyu grades, that would (obviously) take 6 years to reach somewhere near shodan standard. That is of course assuming the student trained every week (x2 lessons) with out fail, totaling aprox 1200 hours worth of mat time. There is of course no 'hard and fast' rule to the question. People all learn at differing levels and have differing levels of desire, passion and commitment. Regards
IMHO there's nothing worse than watching someone grade who is not yet ready. Yeah, I know, it should never happen- but it does. The worst I saw was a BB grading of a student who pushed and pushed to be graded, did pretty well and then went to bits in a live tanto jiyuwaza and got stabbed (and learned that a palm does not stop an 11" live tanto!). Shudokan has a list of predetermined minimum times for grading expressed in hours. Some students can blow this to bits, others could train 10 hours a week for 20 years and still be too poor to be graded at 1st Dan. I've known dedicated and talented students achieve 1st Dan in 4 years by exceptional and special invitation to grade, but the norm is 5-7 years. I particularly admired one 1st Kyu who refused to grade on one sumer school in spite of all the pressure to 'keep up' with his contemporaries - the following year his grading was not 'just good enough' - it was awesome! My rule is that a student is ready to grade when his instructor says so - and when he is also confident to do so. Some good students need to be encouraged, others restrained (in a positive way).
No I've seen worse than that actually. I've seen students grade for 1st, 2nd and 3rd dan who were blatantly not even close to being good enough. And then they would pass their grading. Even more sickening is that many of the students I saw grading for 3rd dan, I wouldn't even have rated as a decent 1st kyu.
hi guys, i've been studying aikido for 12 years and only graded to shodan last may. I've never put a time limit on how i thought i should progress through grades But the past few years, i started to become a little dissilusioned when folks were being given 1st dan when they couldn't even ukemi correctly, it was embarrassing. On one course i had to show some kid how to tenkan whilst doing ikkyo, he thanked me for the 'coaching'. And bugger me if he didn't get shodan at the end of the day (i was 2nd kyu then). His daddy is a high ranker and obviously politics has crept into the organisation as it grew in size. That was the day my aiki bubble burst. From then on i only trained cos of the friends i'd made in my club. When i finally got mine i actually felt like i'd earned it after all the years of learning, injuries and patience. But even now people are being given dan grades for ridiculous reasons. I had hoped beyond hope that politics wouldn't taint aikido, but in some places its far more corrupt than a lot of other arts. Without ego, i'd regard myself as a decent aikidoka and am happy with my level. But i haven't experienced a lot of the stuff some of you guys have, due to lack of tutorship on behalf of certain sensei's. So i sought this experience elsewhere and am far happier and knowledgeable for it.
I've seen all sorts of stuff happen that I would call rubbish, too. Politics and nepotism seem to have always been a part of MA. But there's one thing I'm fairly confident about saying in relation to grades awarded to guys who don't deserve them: Most people who gain a grade they don't deserve KNOW it. Some are human enough to feel ashamed, but some are so arrogant they strut around behaving as if they are gods. The best action in the latter case is to continue to train with pride in yourself - and smile sweetly every time they get humiliated by lower grades. On our summer schools etc all instructors had to teach and to give a short talk. It's amazing how our Sensei would choose techniques and topics that exposed any arrogant student a lesson in humility.
