Yoshinkan as compared to Iwama

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Music Man, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. Music Man

    Music Man Valued Member

    How do these styles of Aikido compare to each other? Do they both lead to the same place? Which is the most martial of the 2?

    Feel free to post any info about both types of Aikido. Compare and contrast.
     
  2. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Just in case you hadn't noticed Music Man, you are supposed to give your opinions and lay out something of a base to the discussion rather than just post a question and wait for others to answer it. Hope that makes sense.

    So what do YOU think about these 2 styles of aikido? Do you have experience in either?

    LFD
     
  3. Music Man

    Music Man Valued Member

    Well, from what I have read yoshinkan is more focused on the martial aspect then iwama but I don't know if that is correct.
     
  4. Dylan9d

    Dylan9d Valued Member

    I don't agree with this, the guy is just asking a question to get some info from the several practitioners on this forum. What's wrong with that?

    I'm not an Aikido practitioner but I saw your absurd response (my opinion)
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2016
  5. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    I don't know, Dylan. MusicMan has a history of talking about martial arts off the mat instead of doing them on the mat, so LFD had a fair point.

    But anyway, Yoshinkan is not more martial than Iwama. They're just different in ways that a non-aikidoist would not appreciate, e.g. stances and foot patterns are a little off. The Yoshinkan style was established before WWII. Then during the war O'Sensei became a near-recluse, and his aikido changed in some ways. The result was the Iwama style. He continued to change throughout his life, so later students learned the same techniques a little differently from that.
     
  6. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    Look at their feet. Different. I get that it doesn't seem like a big difference in a video, but when you're on the mat doing it, subtleties like this are very noticeable.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z2KgfmfkAU"]Yoshinkan Aikido - kihon dosa - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YMOLa2f8aY"]Morote dori-hombu vs iwama - YouTube[/ame]
     
  7. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    They do ikkyo / ikkajo differently. Again, it's subtle enough to go unnoticed in a video if you're not an aikidoist, but when you're on the mat doing it, you will notice differences.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyEwzzChx8s"]養神館åˆæ°—é“ã€ikkajyo - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-77deEJyQJM"]SAITO Sensei - Corrections on Ikkyo / Rennes-France - YouTube[/ame]
     
  8. Chris Li

    Chris Li Valued Member

    Yoshinkan was established in 1955. Morihiro Saito's Iwama style was close enough that Gozo Shioda asked Saito to succeed him at the Yoshinkan (he declined).

    There's a long-held myth about Morihei Ueshiba changing things after the war, but it's mostly just that, a myth. Of course things change, they always do (Shioda changed things as well, of course), but I don't believe that he made much in the way of systemic changes, changes to core principles.

    Best,

    Chris
     
  9. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    Fair point. What I was thinking in my head, but obviously didn't type very well, is that Gozo Shioda trained under O'Sensei before WWII, and then they got interrupted by the war, and preoccupied with other things (completely understandable). Morihiro Saito (Iwama aikido) started his training with O'Sensei after WWII.


    That I didn't know. :)
     
  10. ninjedi

    ninjedi Valued Member

    Yoshinkan is the style taught to Tokyo police, so I suppose you could make an argument that it is more martial(?)

    However, imho, being "martial" completely misses the point of Aikido.
     
  11. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    That depends on which period you're talking about. Originally Ueshiba taught aiki-jujitsu, then changed it to aiki-budo, then eventually aikido. Aikido at its core is jujitsu techniques. Ueshiba's philosophy is yours to take or leave.

    One of the big differences I've found between yoshinkan and other styles of aikido I've cross trained with is the regimentation. Many of the other aikidoka I've cross trained with seem to have a philosophy of "it worked that time, so it's fine." Yoshinkan has a very specific way of doing techniques and movements and the goal is really to learn to plant your opponent with varying levels of severity. Lots of the guys and girls I cross trained with also didn't seem to control the opponent as completely or constantly, letting them fly a little more freely rather than keeping the pressure on. Now some were like that, some weren't, but I found much more consistency on those things in Yoshinkan.
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    These seem more like systematic changes rather than stylistic changes. What I mean is these changes reflect more how uke's reactions and counters changed over time rather than a difference between different schools of Aikido.

    I'm seeing that for Ikkyo, it is still important that tori's foot is behind uke's foot. When uke has a longer base (stance) then tori has a longer base and because uke is less mobile, a more indirect (circular) rolling arm lock can be effective. As uke's base becomes more towards a natural stance (shoulder width), uke maintains more mobility to counter indirect (circular) forces by twisting out of it. Uke becomes more vulnerable to a direct downward rolling arm lock because their base is less stable. Tori therefore has a more natural stance and can drive straight downward.

    Both cases, tori's foot is behind uke's foot.
     
  13. Cen Garsden

    Cen Garsden Flamin' Wobbygong

    Apologies if such a late post on the thread counts as necromancy. I've trained in both styles so thought I'd add something.

    Kamae/hanmi (stance) has already been discussed. However, it's worth noting the kamae of Yoshinkan with hips torqued "forward" is to foster kokyu-ryoku centering of energy, while the hanmi (half body stance) of Iwama with one hip forward is sword based, eg one kidney/lung etc protected from attack. Yoshinkan kamae is generally "deeper" with a greater distance between the forward and front foot, while the Iwama style hanmi is "tighter" (to both Yoshinkan kamae and even the general Aikikai hanmi) with a shorter distance between feet at the hips torqued slightly towards the rear. A Yoshinkan teacher of mine humourously refers to this as "big butt style".

    Another notable difference in methodology is shomen uchi (frontal striking) in eg ikkajo/ikkyo. Yoshinkan mostly utilises this as initiated by the defender in ikkajo 1 and initiated by the attacker in ikkajo 2. This as compared to in Iwama style where it is initated by the defender in both ikkyo omote and ura in kihon (basic) forms, while in ki-no-nagare (flowing) forms the opposite is generally true. As a comparison in most Aikikai dojo the form is that of ki-no-nagare in Iwama style. [OP FYI ikkajo 1 is comparable to ikkyo omote with an irimi (entering) movement, ikkajo 2 comparable to ikkyo ura with a tenkan (turning) movement.]
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017

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