Yonkyo/yonka-jo

I've run searches and didn't find anything specific on yonkyo/yonka-jo (edit: but I did find some very interesting threads on techniques and pressure points that were helpful) and my curiousity got the better of me.

I've come across a few variations on the yonkyo pressure point, now... more so than I've seen on other techniques. I've also seen a few different opinions on training the technique, either with or without a pressure point or using 'pain compliance' as opposed to balance taking.

In Aikido I've seen the upper hand attacking a point between the muscles of uke's forearm with the ball of the thumb or base of the index finger, I've seen a compression of the bones of uke's forearm with nage's upper hand, and I've seen plain ol' twist and cut.

I've also seen the Daito Ryu yonka-jo emphasise nage's lower hand on uke's wrist as either a crushing grip or by attacking a pressure point under the pulse.

Am I right in these observations? This is what I've understood by my (very limited time in the art!) observing, receiving, trying and reading on yonkyo/yonka-jo... I may have misunderstood! Are there yet more?

Cheers,
Ben

 

If using Google, try 'Yonkajo' as an unbroken single word.

Yes to all of the above, but I don't think 'compression' or twisting is strictly Yonkajo, just a variation because those bones of the arm easily cause pain when crushed. The point is not between the muscles but is actually on the bone itself, like a 'trapped nerve' if you like.

It is possible to use this as pain compliance alone or with balance-taking. However, I have never seen balance taken successfully without proper application and pain. Why else would uke comply? I have seen some complete rubbish with hands all over the place, trying everything from a 'chinese burn' to 'crushing' bones from above - only an over-compliant uke makes these work. IMHO it is best to spend some time just learning how to place the hands and find the pressure point, then concentrating on the 'sword cut' holistic movement.

(It has an excellent SD application which you can try out in the dojo. Start from uke grabbing your left lapel with his right hand. Atemi with your right while stepping back with the left foot, thus drawing him onto your atemi.
(This also puts his left arm too far away for a punch and lets you in first.) Grasp his right wrist with your left hand and then apply the technique 'through' his head in a cirular cutting motion while stepping forward with the left foot.)

My rusty understanding of Yonkajo is this:
I was taught to place the fingers of my LEFT hand under uke's RIGHT wrist so that the little finger is located where the wrist joins the forearm (there is a crease here). Then wrap the fingers around the wrist and place pressure with the ball of your index finger onto the radius (upper bone) of his forearm.
Atemi, on this occasion with the right backfist to the face ('metsubushi') is usually applied either just before you take the wrist or simultaneously.

The pressure can be applied by a strong grip or preferably by your movement driving the forearm. It is perhaps easier to apply with your index finger extended, making the ball more prominent. (Some dislike this as it leaves a finger for uke to grab - not a consideration if the technique has been applied properly.)

At the same time, wrap your other hand around uke's hand and bend his wrist towards the underside of the forearm. This makes the pressure point more accessible.

The 'macro' movement equates to using uke's arm like a sword and driving it in a line through his head and then cutting downwards. Once uke is on his knees the pain can be accentuated by taking the arm sideways as well as downwards, forcing them face down onto the floor. It is also possible to tenkan instead of cutting straight down, once uke's posture is well and truly broken. (The yonkajo grip can also be taken by sliding the hands to the wrist after ikkajo/ikkyo, once uke is on his knee or on the ground.)

Once you are familiar with the basic technique it can be used on many other bones, even the shin! If uke has a weapon such as a sword, the handle may also be used to atack the same pressure point and seize the weapon. (This sword-taking is often cited as the origin of the technique.) It is also fantastically effective when applied with a Kubotan, which is of course illegal here in the UK

If uke attacks with his left arm then you use your right to apply the technique, and this time the hands are placed as they would be on a sword, with the right uppermost when 'cutting'.

After a long time our tolerance of the pain increases and beginners should not be surprised if a BB is able to smile and tell them the technique is working on them, while lower grades will be showing much pain.

There are some people who can deal with the pain better than others and some who apply the technique better than others. You may have to slightly adjust your grip for a fat or muscular arm, but IMHO there is nobody on whom this cannot be performed.

Lastly, a small bruise on the wrist often appears after repeated application of this technique. Think of this as a visual target for the following week's training.

 

Memo to self: Don't try finding pressure points in the office... colleagues look at me strangely when I find it and yelp in surprise! (Very detailed and helpful description for finding that point, kiaiki, cheers!)

B

 

Not that I've ever been known to disagree with Kiaiki but,

I do not agree with the concept that pain must be applied to achieve kuzushi or, that pain is a fundamental concept of osae waza.

I agree that pain is easily achieved through the manipulation of the joints akin to the pining applications and, that in many occasions the degree of discomfort felt through the joints will certainly result in a degree of compliance however; as I've mentioned before, I've attempted pain compliance on prisoners with very high motivational levels, to little effect, I've likewise attempted restraining techniques on people influenced by alcohol and drugs again to absolutely no effect thus, if reliance upon pain as a means of control and a primary focus of technique, it is my considered opinion, flawed.

Kuzushi (a state of unbalance) should be achieved through awase (bending) once a person is off balance; they are unable (by and large) to resist the application of technique.

If by attempting a pain compliance application, you find:

a; You haven't hit the spot
b; they have high levels of pain tolerance
c; you cannot reach the point of pain inducement due to clothing or some other reason like drugs or alcohol influencing their pain reception

...You haven't many more options available however; if your focus of training is based upon taking a person's balance through movement then you have options.

Ben,

"Yonkyo" is in effect the term used relating to a logical order or sequence of pinning techniques. "Te kubi osae" is actually the name of the technique you are enquiring about.

As with Kiaiki's comment, I too have seen all manor of weird and not so wonderful attempts at Yonkyo tekubi osae, I myself never intentionally attempt to find the pressure point first, My focus is taking their posture and when I have that person disadvantaged, I may attempt the pressure application aptly described by Kiaiki however, there is always more than one way to legitimately skin the cat and te kubi osae is no different. I suppose it all boils down to style specific technicality

Regards

 

My dojo works on the balance principle too... sensei has mentioned the pressure point and has demonstrated it a couple of times, but only looks for that level of accuracy from the ikkyu crew. Us starters (and the juniors) just go for the basic position and take uke's balance. We had good few hours with a senior instructor on Sunday and he more or less said the same thing (that he doesn't generally teach yonkyo with the pain compliance except infrequently and to higher grades).

B

 

It's possible to do all sorts of things without inflicting pain, but it's not nearly as much fun!! I like to think of it as the quickest route to uke's brain. As we've discussed on other threads, it is simply one method of making uke move or redirect his energy (or of pinning him down).

Seriously, though, if one questions WHY a uke should move in the direction we wish, there is often an atemi or an element of pain which either redirects them or distracts them. As always, try out your technique on a beginner - does he or she move the way you want?

It's all a matter of style and preference. In this case, whilst I agree with Dave's points, the presure point and pain needs to be instantly applied to be effective, something few achieve without a lot of practice. Although it is possible to perform the technique without it, I have a sneaking suspicion that some simply give up trying to find the pressure point and just 'grab, shove and hope' .

OK, so I'm a sado-masochist and just LOVE this technique.....

 

LMAO

 

Ben which dojo do you train in? I know Simon Whitaker of the Cambridge Aiki Dojo (he's under the same Shidoin and organisation as I am) His Yonkyo is directly from Iwama where he studied and took his Shodan if my memory is correct.

If you really want to know the intimacies of this technique, I would heartily recommend dropping by to see him.

Regards

 

Nobody I've practised with to date has ever gotten the nerve in either of my arms. And I'm not exactly heavily built eithers. Like Dave I don't subsribe to the concept that pain is required to make the technique work.

The Ki Aikido method focuses on taking ukes' balance and leading uke properly to where nage wants them to be. Normaly pinned to the floor. I doubt this will work on everybody. But then again, I know the pain and nerve method doesn't work on me. So it's horses for courses I guess.

 

Cambridge isn't easy to get to for me, but I've had it on my to-do list to visit the other dojos in the area (two in Cambridge, one in Peterborough, one in St Ives). I train in Huntingdon/St Ives (same club, different locations... not the same one as the other St Ives club)-- Willow Tree Aikido under Peter Hammond.

Simon Whitaker sensei's dojo is highest on my list, though, as the Iwama system is one that I've been very interested in since I started. I can't usually get there on days I'm free, though

B

 

Hi Ben,

I hope you manage to get to see Simon in the near future, very solid Aikido. The last time I invited him to teach at my dojo we did yonkyo tekubi osae, one exercise to condition your forearms is to press and roll a jo over the inside of your partner's forearm, this is also an excellent means of reviving the arms after a prolonged session of yonkyo keiko.

Regards