White Crane books and DVDs

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Sandy, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Not at all what you said, what you said was
    And that's the problem, you're comparing 2 dimensional static images and not understanding what you're looking at with the crane stuff.
    Those names are widespread in Chinese martial arts, a point you yourself have illustrated, and in many cases the crane movement is not the same as the equivalently named Hung Gar movement.
    Ignoring for a moment the fact that the thread is titled White Crane Books and DVDs, if you use the find all posts by Sandy button under his username, it will become very obvious what he meant.
     
  2. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    "Not understanding". Ok, so you do really just want to argue and be a block quote contrarian and claim you understand things and I don't, yet I've been the one posting all the supporting evidence.

    I thought you were into more constructive dialogue, Ben, but you're taking the stance of kung fu know-it-all.

    You're claiming to a) know exactly what the OP wanted to talk about and b) you're causing a derail trying to deny each any every obvious connection I posted between Hung Gar and Fujian White Crane, which was all done to answer your original question to me. I go and put all this effort into answering your question politely with support, and you keep responding by block quoting and denying everything and your defense is that I'm "not understanding". I wasn't aware you were MAP's resident expert on all things "White Crane"! But clearly you think you know more than I do. I thought we were all equals here, but if you're that kind of guy online who claims he's figured it all out....I have to say this will probably be our last two-way conversation together, and that's too bad.

    Just by useful Crane related material in my posts alone, I'm ahead of you by a factor of 5:1. You made one post about one book, and every post since has been to harangue. It's pretty obvious you're not trying to discuss the topic at all, but to pick apart my positions because as you put it I'm just "not understanding", as if you have some understanding I don't.

    You even charged my observation of the Nam Yang Lion Dance being similar to Hung gar as 'superficial'. Now I understand you meant to say my understanding is really what is superficial? Even given all the evidence and connections I posted, the result of years and years of my own studies of various Nan Quan styles, including but not limited to Hung gar and Fujian Crane? I'm not sure why you think you have better insight than I do, or why you're making a case of that. I would certainly never do that to anyone here.

    No, in many cases they are the same exact techniques, with the exact same names. "Parting the grass looking for snake", "single leg flying crane", "hungry tiger catches the goat", "single cockerel stands on one leg". The hok jueh is the same.

    You seem to want to speak for him, why don't you let him speak for himself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  3. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Hungry Tiger seizes goat is completely different?????
     
  4. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    What evidence do you want? You are ignoring quite significant differences in angle and alignment and don't seem to understand that the power generation is very different. You're looking at things through a Hung Gar prism and unsurprisingly seeing Hung Gar.
     
  5. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Ugh, again with the "you don't understand", the "power generation is different" even though all humans generate power the same way. I will be completely honest brother, I hate discussing "power generation is different" and geometry with kung fu people. It's all the same stuff. There is nothing special or unique in White Crane (or Wing Chun, or BJJ) that isn't in other martial arts. I don't buy what those people try to sell.

    So then prove it to everyone, Ben. Words are cheap, man, maybe a picture or something. Have a good weekend.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  6. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    So you think the power generation in Chen Taijiquan, Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut and Lung Ying are all the same???
     
  7. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Here's the form that you posted the script for
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzUUkov1XE0"]Chinese Master Tan Soh Tin Fujian Shuang Yang White Crane Internal Art Demonstration And Interview.[/ame]
     
  8. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Look at the question obliquely then. Are the mechanics used to throw a shot put and a discus the same?
     
  9. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Much easier with video.
    Is style A [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA"]Hung Gar Tiger Crane - YouTube[/ame]
    related to style B [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SypClCeeg8"]Lama Pai Ng Ying Kyuhn (5 Animal Form) - YouTube[/ame]
    or style C? [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj1FU5LPIh4"]"Beautiful Lady Grooms" - YouTube[/ame]
     
  10. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Just an aside, IF,but I have never seen that as an end posture for WC Spreads Wings Whatever in any of the TC systems.
     
  11. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Neither have I.

    This is what I am familiar with as crane spreads its wings - well some details are different, but basically this.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
  12. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    That appears to be White Crane influenced Tai Chi Chuan. White Crane symbolism goes back a thousand years to the early Daoists and the legends of the Immortals, and made its way into almost every martial art in China. There are all sorts of hybrids out there. These aren't illegitimate lineages, they are simply lineages that have combined arts over generations. You can find a lot more if you have written material to review (specifically the hanzi and pictures and lineage trees).

    The latter age White Crane styles use the symbolism directly in name and the fist sets but you can find all sorts of similar or identical "White Crane" material if you take any Chinese style and examine it down to exact technique names and fist set sequences, you can find common threads between them. If I'm not being clear, the White Crane links all these styles regardless of what's changed, they come from common roots, and not everything has been changed. In plenty of cases, what was once called "White Crane" is actually called by something more practice like "Double Bow Hands".

    In Hung gar the Crane is an internal subset because of it's association with the kung fu styles associated with Taoist immortals (and the White Crane is an important figure in the Immortal legends). Wong Fei Hung was a scholar of both Northern and Fujian styles, so the same goes his Snake components, which share similarities with Tai Chi and Wing Chun. Hung gar Snake and Crane styles contain parts similar to Tai Chi and Fujian White Crane, and from what's been suggested, other Crane styles such as the Tibetan. The Hung Gar and Wing Chun White Crane elements are particularly similar, such that the Wing Chun forms resemble the Snake and Crane sections of Hung gar forms (particularly the opening of the Hung gar Tiger Crane Paired Fist form).

    The single leg rooster stance and kick with the double 'wing'/hand feint is in Karate, Hung gar, the Fujian White Crane styles, and even Mantis, and so on and has the same name in script. This also goes for several dozens of positions. The most obvious example of that is the hok juey (Crane's beak) hand position that makes something particularly stand out as "Crane". Added to almost anything, the presence of hok juey makes something "Crane" technique, style aside.

    Also the figure I keep posting is not just called "White Crane Spreads Wings" everywhere. In Hung gar it has several names, it is called "Single Leg Flying Crane" because it is a kick, although a description of just the hand positions is "White Crane Spreads Wings", because the hand position (hok yik) resembles a White Crane's wing. The stance itself is usually called "Golden Cockerel (rooster) Stands on One Leg". Why was the animal changed from a White Crane to a Rooster? It could have been one of those Ching dynasty code words to hide the true nature of the technique. "Rooster" sounds silly, "White Crane" would have been an obvious reference to the Immortals, martial arts.

    Important to note again is that the commonality for all these can be found in the script itself (the historical record of these arts, as written by their masters). This is not something I discovered watching videos, yet the videos tend to back up the written names of things (not 100% of the time, you can find variations on anything online). It's also supported by the legends, for what it's worth. Fujian connects all of things in Chinese martial arts, it was and still is an epicenter, equivalent in influence to Shaolin and Guangdong. You can find it's DNA every where, but obviously some places more obvious than others.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Perfect, thank you for proving things.

    This is all in Hung gar, along with several variations. Some of the names have been changed from their White Crane origins. They have more descriptive names. Wong Fei Hung could have changed the names, conceivably, or it could have happened before his time. Lam Sai Wing who is responsible for almost all available books on the style, changed some names while keeping things generally organized in Fei Hung's categories (5 animals/elements, 12 bridges). But generally even if these techniques no longer have their "White Crane" names, they might now fall into the Hung gar 5 animal/5 element category system under a different name, but usually still in "Crane sections".

    In a lot cases the original "Crane" name never even referenced a bird at all, but something like the 8 Immortals for example. Like I've been trying to get across, not everything "White Crane" is associated with a Crane, a lot of it is associated with 8 immortals...drunken immortals...arhats...luohan...in Hung Gar Crane, it could be called"Drunken 8 Immortals", but it's in the Crane section of the Tiger Crane, because of it's origin (and not from Tibet, this is a clear reference to Fujian Crane).

    In Hung ga, the first picture is a type of Seung Gong Sao (double bow hands) used in forms and drills. The others are in Hung Gar Taming the Tiger and the Tiger Crane Paired Fist, called by their stance names and their final movement ("Cat Stance Chopping Down", in Lam Sai Wing's books). The original name would have been , as you pointed out "White Crane Spreads its Wings" and in fact some Dang Fong schools still teach this (both names were pointed out to me when I learned this in Yee's). In Hung ga, that phrase can be used in almost any position where the two hands are separated in a hok yik (Crane's Wings) manner. Note that in Tai Chi 'proper', Chen, Yang and Wu styles all contain identical techniques, and each has a slightly different version of what is essentially the same thing, and all still call this "White Crane Spreads its Wings".

     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  14. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Lam Sai Wing performing Tai Chi "White Crane Spreads Wings" as "Double Bow Hands" with Hok Yik (Crane Wing) strike in side horse (bow and arrow, gi ng ma), which is the same exact hand positions, but in a more rooted stance and closing the gap to protect the head and face. This is a simultaneous block and strike with two Crane's Wings. Most of "squeezing" techniques like this are considered Hung gar Wood element, which is the Crane's element.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Lam Sai Wing appears to have left other labels of "White Crane Spreads Wings" out of his books on Taming the Tiger and Tiger Crane, but that technique is still taught in the Dang Fong school. It's right at the start of central portion of the "I" pattern, and is part of the initiation of the Hung gar "Character Thousand Fist" (chin jee sao). It's called this because a combination sequence is incorporated of techniques that spells out the hanzi for "1,000", and it is written by performing one type of White Crane Spreads its Wings along with an axe cutting palm, then the "Double Bow Hands" (another type of White Crane Spreads its Wings), followed by a sequence of punches.

    It would be an impossible coincidence that two completely different Chinese techniques both called "White Crane Spreads Wings" in Tai Chi or White Crane, let alone 3+, make their way into the same Hung gar sequence with a new name. Rather, the "1,000" name likely implies a connection to Tai Chi Chuan (since it contains those techniques), whereas the "Single Flying Leg Crane", "Rejuvenated/Reincarnated Crane", "Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg", and the obvious Crane hand positions all point to Fujian White Crane.

    There is also of course Crane techniques in Hung gar that aren't found in either Tai Chi or Bai Hei Quan. I still haven't found older sources for this one, for instance, in the Hung gar Tiger Crane.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  15. Sandy

    Sandy Valued Member

    Fujian White Crane and Crane-Tiger styles

    If I wasn't confused enough before, I'm certainly confused now LOL :)

    What books or DVDs would you recommend that cover Fujian White Crane style? And how about Crane-Tiger style?
     
  16. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Books and even the training DVDs like those sold by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming will only show a small amount of material. They are not all that helpful without a Sifu who has a very strong grasp of Crane, because it is considered an elusive, 'immortal' style (ultimately "taught by the Immortals/Gods", according to the Southern fist poems).

    This video is one of the best on "Crane Fist" (hok kuen) I've seen. It discusses both the influences on other Southern styles, as well as Okinawan Karate.

    If you watch carefully you'll see a certain classic Hung gar kick. ;)

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUQsCwMY1lc"]KUNG FU QUEST 2- WHITE CRANE BOXING EP 5 (ENG SUB) - YouTube[/ame]

    The pictures I've posted are all from these three books by Lam Sai Wing, each contains at least a few Fujian White Crane techniques.

    Again, to be totally honest, you won't be able to learn much from only the books. The pictures are very old and the best descriptions are in Chinese (the English translations are manageable but hard to follow).

    Likewise, forms videos are not so useful on their own, but if your eye is good you can usually spot Fujian Crane material.

    GUNG GEE FOOK FU KUEN - "Moving Along the Hieroglyph Gung, I Tame the Tiger with the Pugilistic Art"

    - Contains some of the basic Crane stances, hand positions, wing blocks and strikes, including "White Crane Spreads Wings", as well as "Double Dragons Emerge from the Sea".

    Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen - "Tiger & Crane Double Form"

    - Contains more Fujian Crane techniques, including "Reincarnated Crane", "Single Leg Flying Crane", and Eight Immortals Crane style techniques.

    TIET SIN KUEN - "Iron Thread"

    - This contains 'internal' Fujian Crane techniques like "Double Dragons Emerge From Sea" in the Tiger Crane set, but they have been re-named as things like "Penetrating" or "Inch" (cheun) bridges.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Yang Jwing Ming's DVDs are really good for breaking down movements and application. For forms content there's a 15 volume set on Yongchun Baihe by Su Ying Han which includes several weapon forms as well.
    Lorne Bernard and Lee Joo Chian do a couple of DVDs that are meant to be pretty good.
    For Cantonese/Tibetan longarm crane David Ross does a very good subscription service through Facebook teaching Lama Pai. It's only been going 3 months and already has 100 or so lessons.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016
  18. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    ooops!
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
  19. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    "appears"? Either it is or it isn't. Where'd you get that pic from?
    Yeah,I know that.I've been around for couple months.;)
    In which case is system above a TC system,or something else now?
    Except there really isn't a "the" White Crane. Fujian WC systems are certainly different from Northern WC or the Hop Gar type,the latter of which it would seem is where the bulk of the Fu Hok WC come from.
    The only "internal" subset I know of in Fu Hok HG is Dragon.What do you mean? Gung practices?Something else?
    Similarities to TC? Not really,anymore than in many systems something can be seen which exists in another,even totally unrelated system.While Snake and Crane can and do sometimes appear as both obvious and named techniques in TC the actualization of these animals is not about looks or names. For instance, which animal does "Brush Knee..." belong to,and why? Not obvious.

    The Crane techniques and approaches in Fu Hok Hung are mostly of the long armed Hop Gar type,far more of those than short hands.Don't see those type long hands in Wing Chun.
    No it doesn't. A system using a "beak" formation doesn't mean their snake system is now doing crane techniques just because of a particular hand shape used by other systems to mean other things.By that token I can say all Hung Dragons are actually Bat techniques because of the hand form some Silat uses for Bat-a Hung Dragon hand.And since Indonesia was influenced by India and "we all know" martial "arts" came first from India,then I claim historical precedent for Bat over Dragon.
    Silly,huh?

    Rooster sounds silly to you.Don't forget cockfighting has been a major gambling venue.And roosters are a symbol of gameness.As in "Follow Me Up to Carlow"-

    "Rooster of a fighting stock.
    Would you let a Saxon ****
    Crow out upon an Irish rock?
    Fly up and teach him manners!"

    Ok,that'll prob'ly get censored.

    Every TC system has a form translated Golden Rooster/****/Cockerel /Chicken Stands on One Leg as the name of an end posture,which is standing on one leg w/knee raised,one arm down to side other arm pointing up over raised knee.
    Really?A clear reference to Fujian? Chen,Hak-fu's White Crane,the "Tibetan" variety,has a form by that name.And it sure sure ain't Fujian Crane.to repeat,as neither are the majority of Crane techniques in Fu Hok Hung.
    Is that because the Hakka people moved to the south with their Wu Su in the 1100s? Did they influence southern systems or the other way around,or rather which had the biggest influence on the other? If the former this isn't Fujian technique DNA.




    Why are you calling this TC White... etc.? They're not the same thing-in apps or mechanics,and not the same hand positions Totally different mechanics and energetic expressions.

    I think you're reaching,IF.I don't see or feel the TC technique or posture in Hung. Just speaking as someone who has a wee mite bit experience in both.The idea that techniques/postures in a northern system such as TC has to come from Fujian seems rather farfetched,esp as it's common knowledge that martial systems flow south and not north.You wouldn't find much in the way of southern systems being taught in the north pre-PRC,but one does find northern systems taught in the south.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
  20. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    It's from a Tai Chi site that references White Crane. I will search for it again and try to find it.

    That was the crux of my first post, to be cautious of saying "the" White Crane anything, because White Crane elements are so spread over the majority of Chinese styles, there are commonalities everywhere. Especially in the specific hanzi used to describe the techniques (word for word, really). That's strong evidence. You also can't deny the Lam Sai Wing and Dang Fong version of "Single Leg Flying Crane" are definitely Fujian, unless there's some evidence of this same technique with the same hanzi in Tibetan Crane? If you can show evidence of it in Tibetan Crane, then it may actually be an even more common technique than I thought.

    The same goes for the "Rejuvenation of the Satiated Crane", a technique that exists almost identically in Fujian Crane and Hung Gar Crane. Is that also in Tibetan Crane?

    Of the Five Animals and Elements, Crane/Wood and Snake/Water are classified as internal, and have relationships to Tai Chi, and other 'internal' styles associated with Daoism, and the various White Crane styles. This is both in the Chi Gung as well as as the 4 main forms (5 if you count that Yee's splits Taming the Tiger in half).

    You're correct brother it's not obvious but it's not merely similar, the material was utilized.

    Also correct as far as I know, however, the your 'mostly' is what gives it away as one than just one 'type'. Hung gar has both the short and long range Crane material, as I've argued and proven, from very different 'Crane' systems. Kind of my point from the start, I have in both searching and actually practicing discovered multiple types and it's all supported not just with the hanzi, and certain pictures, but just listen to a White Crane or Hung gar sifu who knows enough and they'll tell you the same.

    Watch the White Crane kung fu quest video, he says it right there, the relationship between Southern boxing in general, including arts like Hung gar, and White Crane boxing.

    The 'beak' formation in Snake styles is definitely not Crane. It just looks similar. There are other examples. I am specifically referring to the Hok juey, the Crane's beak hand formation. You will find it in at least half a dozen arts containing Crane material.

    Maybe not so clear, but the reference stands. Can you provide a source, by any chance, or some pictures? Are you referring to the Thousand Character Fist, or the 8 Drunken Immortals?

    If you mean 8 Immortals, I agree there are many variations of that theme. Thousand Character Fist is a Hung gar sequence that shares Tai Chi and several variations of quite different White Crane techniques.

    Respectfully, I don't agree with these sorts of positions, brother, yours or Ben's, about 'different mechanics and energetic expressions'. It's all the same anatomical and biomechanics and to argue otherwise takes you back into the realm of pseudoscience, in my opinion. In reality, physically much of what goes in practicing Tai Chi, Wing Chun, Hung gar, or White Crane is precisely the same. There is far more in common than unique or special. Maybe that's for another thread.

    Sorry if I wasn't clear, but no not that TC comes from Fujian, but that Fujian styles are of course both heavily influenced by Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin (in fact, Shaolin was also heavily influenced by Tai Chi Chuan, and the Fujian Shaolin influenced styles like Hung gar (and the other 4 Southern Family Styles, as well as Choy Li Fut I believe) are direct descendants of these White Crane styles. I would agree with you if it were not for the fact that I've researched and found plenty of real evidence, including the statements of White Crane Sifus. "Common knowledge" and your experience notwithstanding, you will find that many White Crane and Hung gar sifus disagree with you. Fujian Shaolin styles are the common thread between both (with older, north of the river arts like Tai Chi and Songshan Shaolin practices forming common ancestors).

    I humbly recommend you watch the White Crane kung fu quest video again, because it's also "common knowledge" taught from White Crane sifus and Southern boxing sifus that the two share a common history, and in particular, the Fujian Shaolin theme.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2016

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