Hi everyone! I'm completely new to this forum, martial arts, and Kuk Sool Won. I've come to a point in my life where I have the time, and drive to start getting fit, and hope to incorperate a martial art into my fitness plans. I found a listing for a Kuk Sool Won class very near my work and with good hours. However, after a bit of google-fu to research it, (I had never even heard of it before, even though I was an armchair martial arts fan ) this is one of the few forums/discussion channels that don't bash KSW 100% of the time via ad-hominem. Sites that are KSW only, and sites that bash without explanation are clearly biased in thier analysis, for and against KSW, repectively. I have come here looking for some answers from a reasonably balanced audiance. I just want to check the validity of (how true or accurate) the things that I've been reading about KSW: Good things (things drawing me to it) +Very diverse art: strikes, joint locks, weapons (sword and staff are a big draw) +Will help promote/maintain physical fitness Bad things I've read (things that make me leary) -Too diverse, not enough focus -The techniques are overly complicated, and could be replaced with simpler, more effective techniques from other MAs -Cultish behavior? Overly reverent towards founder/instructors and prohibitiong learning other MAs -Little to no emphasis on sparring (and what little sparring there is 'tag kickboxing') -Belt fees are exoberant ($500+ for black belt tests! I'm new to MAs this seems expensive, but I have no real frame of reference) -Rampant McDojoism built into the stucture of WKSA I appreciate the time yall will take to read and answer my questions. tl;dr Are all the bad things I hear about KSW true?
The WKSA teaches KSW and is the largest association as far as # of schools available. Kuk Sool as the WKSA teaches it IS very diverse and will give you things you listed plus more. The training will give you physical fitness benefits you are looking for as well. I don't think there is a lack of focus, the full under belt curriculum will give you all the kicking, punching, breaking, falling, acrobatics you want, plus gives you diverse forms and a range of self defense techniques to cover a very large variety of situations. Here is the Adult colored belt curriculum: http://www.kuksoolwon.com/1st%20Dahn-Adult%202009.pdf I don't feel the techniques are overly complicated, hundreds of children and adults pass the requirements to earn a black belt each year. I can't imagine being simplified any more than they are. Most techniques contain an offense move toward you, your defensive move to counter followed by a kick/strike to finish up. I would not say they have a cultish atmosphere at all. The founder, In Hyuk Suh DOES get a lot respect as he is the founder and leader of our art, but to call it cultish is a big stretch. He is respected as a martial artist outside of the WKSA as well, so it's not just us paying him respect. Yes, most schools will offer little to no emphasis on sparring, although you will find schools that do include it. It is not on the curriculum and will not be tested for advancement. Belt fees and rampant McDojoism go together. I've seen and took lessons from McDojos in the past and I don't see the WKSA as falling into that category. You train at an authorized (and quality controlled) location that ensures the art you are learning is the exact same art everyone else in the WKSA is also learning. Your rank is good at schools all over the world. (check out the complete listing here: http://www.kuksoolwon.com/site/schools ) Your typical McDojo will take an established art and find every means possible to exploit it for money and profit. The typical WKSA school will give you solid, proven and valuable martial art knowledge and only charge you for what is typically expected; Enrollment fees, belt testing fees, Uniform replacements, books etc. The black belt testing might seem high, but if you ask around you will find it is not that out of the ordinary. I paid $350 dollars and that fee included any black belt tests that I attended (which will usually take a person 3 testing to be promoted) so on average you'll only pay $116 for each test. You mentioned the structure of WKSA having McDojoism elements, again I don't see it that way. As a very large organization they have quality control as I mentioned so this means that only certain people meeting certain requirements can open a school. They must follow the WKSAs guidance in running that school and only teach the approved material that comprises the art. Cross training, or studying another art is ok up to the 1st degree point, but is not allowed in order to retain your rank in good standing past that point. As a WKSA member, I can whole heartedly recommend them. If you want to study Kuk Sool, but not within the WKSA there is that option as well. There are other treads devoted to that subject.
no reason not to try it. I met my first and last instructor when I started Kuk Sool Won. While I am no longer assosiated with the "Won" Im still learning and growing after more than 18 yrs.
Below is a summary of some of the benefits associated with being a member in the World Kuk Sool Association (WKSA): The Association’s member identification card recognized worldwide. The Association’s certificate of promotion for color belt rank certification. Consistent and standardized curriculum from White Belt to Black Belt as well as Master level and beyond. Standardized format of teaching and testing for promoting to the next rank. The Association’s quality control standards to ensure the highest standards of Martial Arts instruction and School business operation. Instructional support through WKSA Seminars and WKSA Workshops as well as other instructional materials such as textbooks, videotapes/DVDs, and handbooks, etc. Automatic qualification to the Association’s regional, national and international seminars and tournaments. Transference of membership from one School to another subject to WKSA approval. Training while visiting other Schools (with permission of both Schools). Ability to purchase supplies that have the WKSA Trademarks. Replacement of certificate or identification card (subject to fee). Learning the traditional Korean martial arts system that improves physical ability, mental agility, focus, stress relief, longevity, self-esteem, self-confidence, self-defense, discipline, etc. Learning one of the most comprehensive system of martial arts that includes forms, techniques, kicks, punches, joint locks, pressure points, meditation, breathing techniques, weapons, and more. Learning a proven system of martial arts techniques used and taught in military bases, law enforcements, and other security related forces in many counties, including Korea, USA, Canada, UK, Germany, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Japan, etc. Learning a martial art system that is sanctioned and approved by the Korean Government and its Education Department as one of the Traditional Korean Martial Arts. (Mr. You, In Chon – Minister of C.S.B.T., Republic of Korea) Association that is recognized and accepted by the governments of 22 Countries. (Official WKSA Student Hand Book pg. 7)
Dude, that's astronomically high! That's more than I'd pay for a whole year of karate training with a dan grading at the end.
Honestly, John, I think your simply 2-line post says more about the KUK SOOL WON than just about any other. IMHO if a group can instill, or support, interest or passion to the point that one is still invested even after they leave the group that says a lot about that group. In this way its not about whether something is this or that, but whether people are being coached to grow the way they see themselves growing. Best Wishes, Bruce
Thanks for all the feedback! These are the kinds of answers I was looking for! For reference (Pugil!) I'm based out of the NW Florida Area. I have a few other questions/clarifcations! Really? Rates must be really jacked around here, as the local karate school (dojo, I guess?) charges an 'introductory' rate that comes out to about $11 per week. Which is much more for a year of karate than the $350 referenced. I have no frame a reference when it comes to what are reasonable prices, as this is my first endevour in the subject. Thanks Xanth, this was an excellent and objective post! How serious is this? If I wanted to diverify at all, would I be kicked out? That seems a little xenophobic.
That's because those in the 'Won' will tell you that there is no need to look at or cross-train in other arts, because they have it all anyway.
Is $350 too much to ask for a black-belt registration fee? First let's realize that this fee has nothing to do with any lessons, tuition, etc. as it is a REGISTRATION FEE paid up front (and supposedly non-refundable) that one is expected to pay in order for the privilege to test for the coveted black belt. It used to include a special uniform which only black-belt holders were allowed to wear, but that aspect was changed a few years ago (you must pay extra for this special uniform now [and AFAIK you HAVE to purchase it in order to promote] as you are expected to be wearing it for the promotion ceremony - cost is approx. $100). But let's back up a couple or three decades ago, to see how we got to this "exorbitant" fee. When I started training in KSW, the black belt test fee was only $150 (and yes, it included the BB uniform, an embroidered belt with YOUR name, a FRAMED certificate, a wallet-sized ID card, and a lapel pin). Soon afterwards, in order to add *sanctioned* properties to the certification, $100 was added to the price as this *extra* was supposedly going to the KIDO-HAE (who were providing sanction of the certificates through the south korean government). Why this additional cost wasn't SUBTRACTED from the testing fee once this perk from a separate entity was no longer required, as WKSA got it's own sanctioning privileges from the ROK government (1990's-??), I don't know. Also, after about 15 years or so of not adjusting this fee for inflation, another $100 was added citing inflation as the culprit for the increase. As already stated, rather than bump the price again it was decided to eliminate the BB uniform from being included, and now that cost for the uniform is incurred separately. The certificates stopped having a frame long ago, as did the personalization of the belt's embroidery. So your $350 will get you a sanctioned certificate, a laminated ID card (lamination was added a number of years ago), a generic embroidered belt and a lapel pin. AFAIK, the number of tests it takes to complete the requirements for promotion is set at about 8 or 9, and you are supposed to pay a test fee to your instructor (where s/he sets the price) for each one. Each school may change some of these guidelines arbitrarily, but since the WKSA was franchised recently, I would expect that these guidelines will be more strictly enforced as time goes on. EDIT: It might be wise to include the fact that black belt holders are expected to participate in tournaments & seminars periodically in order to retain a status of "in good standing" which is needed to be eligible for entry into seminars, tournaments, etc. which the WKSA offers. And although one doesn't have to enroll in the weapons division, it's a requirement that if you do you MUST wear yet a different uniform (called a "general's uniform" or jang-goon dobok) which costs about $200 or $250 (I lose track since I'm no longer part of WKSA). Also, the registration fee for each higher dan rank is substantially more than it is for first degree, with no apparent reason for the increase (the costs for one rank should be no different than the costs for a different rank, since tuition isn't included in determining the price of the fee). Unless recently altered, I believe the fees are as follows: CHODAN = $350 EEDAN = $500 SAMDAN = $700 SADAN = $1000 ODAN = $1200
Unknown, I don't personally know about any additional costs, I paid the 350 last October and was told that included the belt.and gold fringed top. And I believe you are correct, the generals uniform is separate.
And not to *bash* the Won, but looking over the post contributed by Obewan (post #45), I'd like to share my POV about what is or isn't a "benefit" of being a WKSA member... I have no qualms with the first dozen or so items in that list, but the further down you go, the more I feel the items aren't technically a benefit to each individual member. Learning the traditional Korean martial arts system that improves physical ability, mental agility, focus, stress relief, longevity, self-esteem, self-confidence, self-defense, discipline, etc. This is nothing more than promotional advertising, and could be said of any MA (in a generic sense). Learning one of the most comprehensive system of martial arts that includes forms, techniques, kicks, punches, joint locks, pressure points, meditation, breathing techniques, weapons, and more. Again, this is much like the previous item which isn't specific to WKSA memebership, even if you consider it a "benefit." Learning a proven system of martial arts techniques used and taught in military bases, law enforcements, and other security related forces in many counties, including Korea, USA, Canada, UK, Germany, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Japan, etc. This makes it sound as if the WKSA brand of kuk-sool is taught to military & law enforcement on a grand scale, which it isn't. While it may be wide-spread across the globe, there's a reason why Kung-Noob never heard of kuk-sool DESPITE being familiar with MA in general. Learning a martial art system that is sanctioned and approved by the Korean Government and its Education Department as one of the Traditional Korean Martial Arts. (Mr. You, In Chon – Minister of C.S.B.T., Republic of Korea) And how many other KMA can make a similar claim? I'm guessing it may be more than one might think. Association that is recognized and accepted by the governments of 22 Countries. This is actually a reference to COPYRIGHTS held for the name of "Kuk Sool Won" and "World Kuk Sool Association (WKSA)" even though it's worded to sound as if the WKSA is held in high regard by these various countries/governments. I don't feel as though the WKSA has done anything criminal in listing these items, but I do think it's a bit disingenuous in the way they were presented.
Well......this gets into that whole vague, blurry line between what is, what isn't and how things are presented. I've made various attempts to get clarified this and that bit and most of the response seems to be that I'm bashing K-S, so I just don't have any more interest in that. For my part, though, the idea of not being able to cross-train does not have so much to do with being able to sharpen my fighting skills as much as being able to inter-relate with other people who share my fascination with history and tradition. And I'm afraid I would not make a very good "KUK SOOL" person as I wholly expect that when I make the acquaintance of a kindred spirit I would be exchange views and materials and not actually care who knew about it. Old people: Ya gotta love us!! Best Wishes, Bruce
