What is it about Gozo Shioda?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by dakid, Jun 26, 2009.

  1. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi buddy

    How is the training going. damn the chinese government for banning the youtube videos.

    regards koyo
     
  2. arctos725

    arctos725 Valued Member

    it is all right. I will go to practice tomorrow after more than 10 days pain on my foot (I have gout). I couldn't walk very well. Fortunately, I can work home.
    We pracised Jo kata followed your demo. I downloaded the vedio before chinese government blocked youtube. We know it is not a good way for practicing aikido but better than nothing.
    OUr sensi asked me when you can come to china. You will be vvvvvvvvvvvip in ou dojo.
     
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Did you manage to download the videos from the aikido an insight thread posted here on MAP by David Britten (bear).That has the partner practice of the jo kata on it.

    koyo

    I would love to come to China but I can barely afford one holiday a year and Mrs koyo insists that we visit our kids in San fransisco.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2009
  4. KOKORO KAI

    KOKORO KAI Valued Member

    Steven Seagal the man that ate too much
     
  5. .Nathan.

    .Nathan. New Member

    To be honest, whether you think Seagal is any good or not, even fatter people can be good. Seeing as you don't need to be able to bench 100 and have an 8 pack to be considered able to do Aikido an at expert level, it wouldn't surprise me if there were a fair few Shodan's and above out there who are carrying a lot of weight.

    There's a guy in my dojo about Seagals size, and he moves quicker than 3/4 of the other people there.

    Anyway, back to the point,

    It's a demo. First off, if he were to take it 100% seriously as if it were real, everything would be a complete blur, and someone would end up with their forearm bone sticking out of their tricep or something.

    And if it was a simulation of something more "real", Shioda would cop a few hits. No matter if you're 9th Kyu or 9th Dan, you're probably going to get hit in a "real" fight a couple of times or more.

    Like I said, if you can watch an actual Yoshinkan Randori, then you'll get a better idea.
     
  6. arctos725

    arctos725 Valued Member

    Yes I got the videos. Thank you and David. We have a full class for basic weapons on Saturday night. Hope I can show you any videos of our training.
     
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    If you check out bokken basics aiki ken thread here on MAP I have posted quite a lot of info that may be of value to you.

    koyo
     
  8. Phantom Power

    Phantom Power Valued Member

    One of my favourite Aikido books is "Aikido Shugyo" by Gozo Shioda. Its more about his thoughts and memories and not a technical manual, a real insight into the man. A lot of the anecdotes in AWP come from this book.
     
  9. MonkeysUncle

    MonkeysUncle Shakin' like Bacon

    Though I am not an Aikidoka, I have a big interest in the art. One of the things that annoys me whenever I watch an Aikido video, is that whenever uke attacks, it seems to be an obvious overhand chop, or wristgrab. I'm sure there are some other attacks that are trained against in Aikido, but it would be quite nice to see a video with an Aikidoka using a technique on a more "normal" attack - cross, wild haymaker, tackle, etc.
     
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Check out aikido an insight thread.
    Any comments or questions shall be answered.

    regards koyo
     
  11. David Rubens

    David Rubens Valued Member

    Hi All,

    Hmmm, where to begin....!!

    For those who don't know me, I trained in the Yoshinkan Hombu Dojo 1984-'88, was uchi-deshi for 2.5 years, uke to Shioda Sensei many times, was his interpreter in Tokyo and on his trip to Canada in 1990, translated Total Aikido....and even got a walk-on part in AWP. Right, that's my credentials on the table!

    In order of appearance:

    The reason that we tend not to wear Hakama in Yoshinkan is that when we are in the dojo we are training (as opposed to practicing), and therefore we are constantly being observed (and corrected) by the teacher. As one of the purposes of the hakama is to hide the balance of the knees and ankles, it is counter-productive in a training environment, especially in Yoshinkan where so much emphasis is put on the correct use of the lower body. Also, as Yoshinkan was largely developed in a police and military training environment, the students would have been wearing basic judo-style dogis, rather than hakama which would have affected their ability to train in a military-style manner.

    Next, THDMitch in post #9: Dontcha just love it when they start off 'I'm going to try and phrase this carefully so please don't take offence because, honestly, none is intended'.

    You write...'I have a real interest in Aikido and Yoshinkan in particular (based mainly on Angry White Pyjamas ), but too much of this looks like bunkum.... As a result I like to think that this does not represent Yoshinkan Aikido but is just a demonstration, and as a result demo videos should be banned in case it puts people like me off'.

    TKDMitch, you are exactly right - it is a demonstration of a martial art, given by the 63-year old founder of the style. You have two other choices - either he shows the 276 (or whatever) basic and combined techniques, which takes hours, or he does one 'proper' technique, in which case the whole demonstration lasts a tad under four seconds!

    It is really like most things, what you will take out of watching someone like Shioda Sensei (or any other person of similar standing) depends to a large extent on the attitude you bring to the party. If you come with the idea that 'This is really one of the great martial artists of his generation, a man given genuine respect by all other serious martial arts masters, whether from Aikido or not, and this is an opportunity to see a man who has spent forty-eight years of his life developing an aikido that has a world-wide standing', or (and this is exactly as valid as the previous attitude) 'Jeez, that's some old bloke pretending to knock his partner over. Me, I'd punch him in the head and then let's see how good he is'.

    Someone once asked Count Basie if Duke Ellington was any good. He turned and looked at him, and answered 'Man, if you've got to ask, then you ain't ever going to know!'.

    But....for those who say it is sham, then I offer a very simple test. One of the thing that Shioda Sensei is known for is facing multiple attackers in his demonstrations (often 5-10 people, all instructors in his own dojo). Clearly, a lot of people immediately say, 'It's fake, they're not trying to knock him over'...which I accept is true. However...when he finishes that bit of the demonstration, which often lasts up to a minute....he then carries on speaking into the microphone AND HE IS NOT EVEN OUT OF BREATH!! I have spent twenty-five years trying to do that - and not even got close! So, as a simple test of 'real' and 'bunkum'....have a go!

    About the toe: It is targetted against a pressure point in the foot, and like most pressure point techniques (if done properly) it is not about controlling the foot, but rather exploding the brain with pain and suffering, so that you are actually incapable of conscious thought, and the last thing in your mind is anything to do with reversing the technique, punching the other person, etc etc.

    On one other point: As an academic, I am slightly fetishistic about correct citation of sources, so in order that I can sleep at night I need to point out that although Shugyo was originally published in Japanese in 1991, it wasn't published in English until 2002. AWP was published in 1997, and as Robert Twigger spoke no more than rudimentary Japanese, it is unlikely that there was any direct cross-over from Shugyo to AWP.

    On happier matters....at the end of July I am going to be spending 10 days in Israel and the West Bank doing aikido with Israeli and Palestinian aikido groups. This is part of the Middle-East Aikido Programme of Aiki Extensions, a group involved in using aikido to create cross-border and cross-community connections (such as in Iraq, Ethiopia, Brazil, etc). If you are interested, check out www.aiki-extensions.org.

    Good training to all....

    David
     
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    About the toe: It is targetted against a pressure point in the foot, and like most pressure point techniques (if done properly) it is not about controlling the foot, but rather exploding the brain with pain and suffering, so that you are actually incapable of conscious thought, and the last thing in your mind is anything to do with reversing the technique, punching the other person, etc etc.

    Man I'd like someone to do that to me because I just don't buy it. Put your hand on a hot stove and your brain will explode with pain and suffering (as you put it).
    It's precisely because you don't consciously think about that that your body automatically pulls your hand away. You don't need to reverse or punch the stove to stop it burning you...just pull your hand away.
    Getting your toe trodden on is no worse than touching a hot stove I would say.
    I just can't see why the guy being trodden on keeps his foot there?
    If his brain is exploding as you describe he would pull it away whether he chose to or not.

    Don't get me wrong...I'm sure targetting a pressure point in the toe is all well and good. I just don't buy the targets reaction to it (wincing and pawing at his foot like it's caught in a steel trap) in the way it's applied in the context of this demo.
    He looks like a patsy basically.
    Therefore I can't really see what is being demonstrated.
    It hurts when you let people tread on your toes perhaps? That's hardly ground breaking.

    The only reason I ask is that Shioda seems to think he's showing us something by doing it (he seems to be having a great time). I just don't know what.
     
  13. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Well in the hot stoves defence. It can't follow you around. So it's just not as impressive as a real live human being.

    Sudden and extreme pain can be debilitating. Just ask anybody with arthritic joints.
     
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Hmmm...sods law I can't find the bit I mean.
    The reason I brought it up is because in the demo he DOESN'T follow the guy around. He just treads on his toe and the guy flops about (there's no other word to describe it) like his foot's been nailed to the floor.

    Sudden and extreme pain doesn't stop the aikidoka from executing nice and balletic break falls at the drop of a hat (or should that be at the drop of a Shioda?).
    And pain caused by an internal source (like arthritis) is quite different from pain caused by an external source (like heat or a big toe).
    With arthritis there's no location to get "away" from.
    In this case the location is under Shioda's foot and therefore a route away from pain is possible, plausible and do-able. And yet the man does not take that route.
     
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    You could of course just read it as an absolutely sincere attempt to differentiate between my criticism of this type of video, rather than the art it represents, my concern coming from a genuine admiration for the style. :)

    Thanks for the explanation of the hakama, that makes perfect sense.

    Mitch
     
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    For me the toe standing is Shioda kancho having fun,I am sure if the boy pulled his foot away (it IS a demo) he would get one of Shioda's palm heels to the chin. He often did this in demos,laughing and smiling while executing PERFECT timing distancing and decisive actions.

    I have trained with a number of Yoshinkan aikidoka including Dave Ruben (an excellent example of martial arts) and have found them to be a breath of fresh air as against the many schools of aikido that train with a less than martial attitude.

    Look at the timing etc and see the "humour" where it is intended.


    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Ah now that makes more sense. It's a sort of physical joke? I see.
     
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I took part in a demo wherein Nakazono opened the demo by saying he "liked me" but he did not like my kit!!! So he did the entire demo by "throwing my kit all over the place" by using the cuff,colar and sleave without taking hold of "me" at all.

    Another given for wheel chair children saw Noro shihan as a truant from school and numerous uke's as attempting to "take" him to school. Bodies flying all over the place.

    The other side of the coin... At a class stressing the martial aspects of aikido I was knocked semi conscious with the first blow and obsevers said "the body" was then thrown a couple more times before I collapsed only long enough to get hauled up and more of the same.
    After that a whole group left never to return.


    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  19. Phantom Power

    Phantom Power Valued Member

     
  20. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    Thanks for all that Dave, great read. AWP was my first inspiration to go to Iwama. I remember thinking that if they guys in there 30s who where os out of shape could survive i must have a fighthing chance. ALthough my 1st 2 weeks where very scary so much blood and injury lol. Thats the love though. Great part about the toe and atemi, that is something ive seen taught a few times in Iwama, sensie would show it as a way to stop ukes running around you and a great way to wake them up lol. Toe to toe is the point to pivot around or just crush the toes lol
     

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