What does "ki" mean to you?

Ah, I see. I didn't realise that Japan, and aikido in particular, had a trademark and exclusive use rights on the word - and the public perception thereof.

As before in these threads I feel I should clarify. I am not against the use of foreign terms. I am not against the use of vague terms (within limits). However, ki is a term with far too much baggage attached, hence the arguments it provokes. In trying to defend one usage of the word, and not explaining why, someone is defending all usage - including the mystical.

I'll try again.

Centrifugal force is a resultant force which emerges in a rotating system - also known as a fictitious or apparent force. It is not a physical force independent of a rotating system, but a convenience to make the calculations easier - however the term is still a technical term to describe an apparent force which exists in a rotating system.

So you're partly right in that it, itself, does not exist, however it is used to describe the interaction of two forces which produce exactly the same vector as would be produced by centrifugal force, were it to exist. So the term centrifugal force is a convenience, but the concept and terminology is valid.

Hopefully it's cleared up a little.

The definition of insanity is to try the same thing again and expect different results, I know. But I'm an optimist, and possibly delusional.

 

Only if you ignore the context in which the word is being used. Take the word "spirit" for example. It has more than one use in the English language.

If I said "LilBunnyRabbit enjoyed a good spirited debate", would I be implying you like to argue with ghosts? Would I be suggesting you prefer the debate to be lively with lots of contribution? Or would I be implying something else?

 

Some example usages would be handy. Without context being provided, it's hard to take it into account.

All of the above are possible. Including that I like a good debate with plenty of spirits involved - especially a good whiskey.

 

Well I'd have to say you're being deliberately obtuse. If you're posting on a martial arts forum, in the Aikido subsection it's fair to assume the context the ki is being used in relates to martial arts and Aikido in particular.

So there's your context. What's the problem?

 

Perhaps I just haven't been around long enough, but I don't remember the other ki discussions. I'd say this thread has been remarkably civil and open-minded, actually.

 

That's certainly what I had in mind when I started the thread. The Japanese use the word ki for lots of things, but I was referring to the way we Westerners adopt the use of the word in our martial arts practice.

 

I shall also try again.

If we are to ensure a circular trajectory, the force must be directed towards the centre of the given circle. The magnitude of the force (F) determines the radius (r) for a body with a certain mass (m) and a certain velocity (v). We can express the above correlation thus:

F = mxv2/r

I repeat - centrifugal force does not exist.

In my original example of Ikkyo, there are no outwardly directed forces acting on either uke or tori. All that is happening is that uke's original linear path has been redirected by tori by way of the friction generated between tori's feet on the mat - the direction of that friction being directed toward the centre of the circle. Initially, uke's arm will follow the new course, but the greater mass of the body will carry on in a straight line only to follow when the 'slack' has been taken up. At no time is there any outward force acting upon uke. To change the movement of uke's body, it takes a force in a desired direction and nothing else.

You can bang on all you like about vectors and pseudo science and the like 'till the cows come home - none of it will ever make centrifugal force exist.

Centrifugal force is a fictitious force invented by physicists to make certain calculations easier - those calculations being used in relation to accelerating systems - it is incorrect to apply any of this to individuals taking part in a martial art (unless they were perhaps on the deck of a moving lorry or similar, at the time).

I'm afraid that with regard to my original statement I am 100% correct in this matter.

My original statement was a genuine attempt to contribute to Owlmatt's original question which I thought was extremely interesting - I apologise to you for diverting from your original thread, but I'm afraid I had to defend the basic laws of physics. This will be my last comment on this subject - I have no time for a point scoring exchange, but thanks again Owlmatt for an interesting question....

 

I apologise for my instinctive, knee-jerk reaction to the subject of ki being brought up.

I honestly didn't realise that it was in the Aikido forum (due to only ever checking the New Posts) originally, although I don't know whether that would've changed my reaction - I think my feelings on mysticism are clear. By the time I did realise where the thread was, I was somewhat riled. I still feel that the term itself (when used in English language) encourages mysticism, however I apologise again if I have caused any offense.

Also, aikiMac, I have actually trained in aikido for a period. Not long, but I have done.

And Xascat - yes, that's why I referred to it as an apparent or fictional force - and expressly said that it only appeared as a resultant force. So we're agreeing on that front, it's just that you don't think it is therefore a valid term, while I do. People have been arguing about this for years - I doubt we'll get anywhere so I'm happy to agree to disagree on the validity.

 

I guess what I am saying is:

-its something that happens with training, not something you can manipulate but something that develops naturally. Its your relationship with your partner, which is defined by qualities such as speed, timing, etc.. Basically if ki = energy then ki is made up of all the same things that create energy; either within oneself, within your partner, and between the pair.

-I believe ki extends beyond just a physical relationship, either with yourself or your partner...so maybe your mental relationship with yourself and partner and how that effects training/techniques. My personal belief is that attitude/spirit etc effect you physically (the physical relationship with your partner) so they kind of work off each other.

-I get upset when teachers use the term 'ki' as a crutch to replace lack of technical knowledge (ooh, your ki is not strong here...do better next time, EXTEND that ki! wtf?)

And no, we don't really use the term ki much during training...but I don't think it should be totally thrown out just because its often a misused term and there isn't a great english translation for it.

Um, I guess what I'm trying to say above is that Ki is created by movement and attitude..its what happens during training/movement...not something you can 'add' to it. To me, if someone says 'your technique has poor ki' I would take that as 'your technique is poorly executed'

 

I do the same thing on website forums...and occasionally end up posting inappropriate or out of context things!

 

Any technical phrase can be abused. We only have to look at the marketing for cosmetics to find evidence of that. So the fact that a phrase or word can be abused isn't a reason to stop using it. It's a reason to redouble efforts to make sure students are taught properly and those students understand what they are being taught.

Aikido is a Japanese martial art. It's principle governing bodies are still based in Japan. It's very useful for students to be able to understand the Japanese if they ever decide to move between organisations or visit Japan. It means the art is being taught with the same or at least roughly the same terminology wherever students choose to train.

I don't see it as any great hardship that English speakers may need to learn the meaning of non-English words when practising a martial art derived in a place with a very different culture and language.

I think we should also remember that the English language has been heavily influenced and modified since the days of it's Germanic roots. So we shouldn't shy away from adopting new words or foreign words into our vocabulary. The mixing of languages is a natural process as culture meet, mingle and merge.

 

I always thought Ki was something you needed to open the door to your dojo!

 

Technically it is. A core tenant of Ki Aikido is "mind moves body". Your mind must tell your hand to push the door open.

 

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/centrifugal_force.png