What does "ki" mean to you?

You just don't give people enough credit to think for themselves and understand that quite simple point - for themselves. Obfuscating and mystification can just as easily happen with a collorary english term eg. Energy. It's completely dependent on how that word is used by the speaker and understood by the listener.

I can easily talk about my energy channels and channeling or projecting my energy into you to heal you, upset your mindset or whatever other kooky type thing. Whether I say "ki" or energy is irrelivent to the point about mystification. In this example I'm mystifying energy in the exact same way another speaker would mystify "ki".

It's not because it happens to be an exotic foreign word spoken in the English language - that's not really the problem at all, it's because people in general can be fairly gullible and or want to believe such things.

Instead of trying to Nanny over such things, educating about it and understanding is far better.

You can't protect the kids from the big bad world forever you know.

 

I'd add to that tactics, timing and principles.

 

You'll notice that I make similar comments about the mystical use of the word energy. If anything it raises my anger further.

I can easily talk about my energy channels and channeling or projecting my energy into you to heal you, upset your mindset or whatever other kooky type thing. Whether I say "ki" or energy is irrelivent to the point about mystification. In this example I'm mystifying energy in the exact same way another speaker would mystify "ki".

Yes. However, using exotic words makes it a more obvious attempt to mystify, more blatant. At least the people who say 'energy' could conceivably just have no knowledge whatsoever of the real meaning.

My patience wears thin. In the case of kids, I'm quite happy to go down the education route. In the case of supposed grown-ups, less so - particularly as I've never seen it actually work on the believers.

Can with enough explosives.

 

Sometimes you can explain in explicit technical terms what they should be doing, you can show them, you can even guided them through it, and they can still not get it. At other times you can give them the general shape and then tell them to put their energy/intent in a specific direction and they will get better structure and more appropriate muscular activation that with the technical explanation.

The truth is you're trying to shape a behaviour, so you get them closer by whatever explanation you need to use and then reinforce the improvements.

 

If you're teaching them using mysticism and magical energy as an explanation, then that's what you're teaching them. Yes, it can help with their technique, but you're also busily programming them to believe that this mumbo-jumbo has merit.

 

having been around these styles for around 10 years now, I think that the believers will still be so, despite the particular word of preference they've been exposed to.

And it's not even that you can make a whole culture or language dissapear. Even harder the longer a student sticks around. They're are going to be books, message boards etc.

If anything an instructor should introduce the term and even use it occasionally (English speaking class) - the way it's intended in the arts teaching. Whether for body positioning, intention, spirit etc. to get the right sort of messages about it across as much as possible.

Even if something is questionable, I really don't believe in the form of censoreship being suggested.

I would consider it part of the full education process..

 

Sadly, you're probably right. However there's no need to encourage them.

Great - if you can just nail down a firm definition so that it can be used as intended, then no problem.

Who said anything about censorship? What's wrong with using the right terms for the right things, without trying to obfuscate with spiritual mumbo?

If someone's lying to their students, that's not education.

 

I agree that if ki is your only explanation you'll get that result. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that sometimes the technical explanation fails to create the proper change in behaviour. At that point you can use a more metaphoric explanation to guide the behaviour to a better approximation of the behaviour. Then after they have gotten closer to getting the behaviour right you can re-explain the technical side so they can self-shape the behaviour.

As an example, for certain throws in aikido I was having trouble with getting the proper position and coordination during the throw. I knew what I was supposed to do and how but it just wasn't working. My sensei told me to extend my intention forward more. It corrected the problem.

 

Martial arts in Japan seems to have been taught quite successfully for thousands of years using ambiguous and highly context sensitive terms like Ki. So I see no sudden or particular reason to change.

What I have witnessed in clubs I have practised at is a relaxation of standards and a reduction in the severity of practice. All in the name of appealing to a wider demographic to turn a profit.

 

When you said that we shouldn't use foreign words.

Maybe it's a slight stretch from what you actually said, but isn't that basically the implication of it: To not use the foreign word unless we're speaking that language, which would be to censor ourselves in some form.

 

By firm, I think you may mean a single one. It's not the case here and this isn't that uncommon with words.

I totally agree. But to be informed about a subject means you also have to be in a position to seperate the wheat from the chaff. My intention was that good instructors will give out good accurate well rounded information on the subject matter.

It's a problem (as well as a shame) when people are misled, intentionally or otherwise. I'm with you on that. Sometimes it's not just the students that need the educating eh.

 

It's more than a slight stretch. I'm not against foreign words at all, but if you're just using the word without bothering to define and explain it in an educational sense, then there's no point to it.

There are some words which are valuable - schadenfreude for example which describes a particular type of sadistic humour, which can be explained in English but takes longer.

If someone is educating students they have a duty to do so to the best of their ability. That includes being clear about what they are saying.

So no, it's not censorship, it's just expecting anyone who is trying to call themselves a teacher to be professional about it.

I'm aware of this. That's why those words shouldn't be used when teaching something technical.

Good instructors will. Those aren't the ones I'm arguing against.

Clue sticks are wonderful things.

 

So is it bad instructors you don't like or terminology that's hundreds or thousands of years old you don't like?

 

Unless the instructor is straight up saying ki is this supernatural force unbeknown to the scientific community, which also happens to have these funky properties like no touch shennanigens etc. I really can't find a lot to be against.

But that's me.

I agree with Sketco, it can sometimes help to use words that help people visualise or feel things. Sometimes technical or mechanical language fails to induce such feelings in people. As long as it's explained how you're using a term, I think it's ok.. And as long as that explanation doesn't fall into the category of what I've described in the first paragraph.

Available on Amazon?

 

Well, I may not have the ability to understand technical terms but I do know that centrifugal force does not exist - period. I can't be bothered going into detail here, but maybe reading some of Richard Wolfson's essays on the subject may clear things up. He's professor of physics at Middlebury, and is quite passionate about clearing up this sort of nonsense. Or maybe he just shares my lack of ability to comprehend technical terms.

 

It depends on the definition doesn't it? I thought that there was "Reactive Centrifugal Force" and the "Fictitious Centrifugal Force"

 

Ki to me, is what is in a living thing that is not in a dead one

 

so you're saying ki is life?

I would rather describe it as intent, positive energy or spirit. whether you want to give the name of the force of the mind as 'ki' is a matter of choice. there is no doubt that the mind can be used to do things that seem weird and mystical to those untrained in these things but the word gets thrown around in ignorance far too much. i had a guy recently who has only been practising for 5 months tell me my atemi didn't have enough ki. he might have had a point as it was admittedly lacklustre but not in the way he thought he understood it. quite often in my opinion it is an excuse for lazy students to get into a discussion on the mat and stop exercising. ki talk = breather time.

why pay your money to come on the mat and talk about it when you can practice it?

I reckon we're all just trying to understand how our bodies work and how we can repel attacks using a sophisticated understanding of what really happens, in a way that most people don't think about. in essence we're all just smart arses. some people get too caught up in being a smart **** they haven't noticed the nasty man trying to stab them in the stomach with a wooden knife.

 

Haven't we already covered all this stuff in the other chi threads? It's one thing to open a can of worms, it's another thing (insanity) to open another can of worms and expect anything except more worms.