What does "ki" mean to you?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by OwlMAtt, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    I recently posted a piece from my blog about ki on AikiWeb. You can find it through the link from my signature if you want, but here's the Cliff's Notes version:
    • There is no agreed-upon definition of ki.
    • Nothing attributed to ki in the martial arts needs more explanation than can be provided by physics.
    • Belief in ki leads some people into ridiculous and even dangerous delusions.
    • Even in the case of those people who just use ki as another word for breathing and visualization, using a mysterious word just obfuscates things.

    I recognized that I have no business telling instructors how to run their classes, but I made clear that, for the above reasons, I wouldn't use the word myself and I would have a little difficulty taking instructors seriously who constantly talked of cultivating and using ki.

    A lot of people on AikiWeb seemed pretty uneasy about this, and a few seemed outright offended. I didn't really expect this; I came up in a club with strong ties to Ikeda, who never uses the word ki.

    Here on MAP, the aikido crowd is much younger and is much more varied (some of our most prominent posters, for instance, come from the Iwama and Yoshinkan traditions), so I'm interested to find out: what is your take on ki? Do you use the word at all? What does it mean to you?
     
  2. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    To totally discount the term "ki" does a pretty large disservice to the art. Just because there isn't a direct translation into english doesn't mean its a worthless term. It is the critical component in aikido. Now where I take issue with the term 'ki' is when teachers use it as a crutch to make up for poor understanding of technique.

    I would never use the term 'ki' as it relates to a specific technique we are doing. For example, I would never tell someone their technique is wrong because "they need to extend ki' more, or 'maintain one point.' That's lazy teaching and could be an indicator that teacher doesn't really know what causes a technique to work. Rather we focus on form, posture, and correct movement to create technique, not archaic unclear terms.

    That being said, I hold that ki is something created during aikido technique. Better men than me have described ki as 'the relationship between the uke and nage.' What this suggests is that speed, timing, and breath power is ki. So if you want to say ki = energy, you can describe energy as being created by timing, speed, distance and breath power...all critical aspects of technique. So, in that way of thinking, it seems kind of useless to tell someone they need more 'ki' or try to tell them what to do with it. So if someone is lacking ki, we would observe their technique and identify such problems as having elbows too high, poor distance, bowed back, etc...
     
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    So in other words mechanics and refinement? Or pretty much what Owlmatt said in the first place
     
  4. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    I trained Yoshinkan aikido for 4 years and there were several ways ki was used such as a term for intent relating to the energy and direction from strikes, the body mechanics and direction in applying a technique, the intent and aggression behind a technique.

    Never was it actually taken to mean that it was some magical force flowing through the body but as a metaphor which could easily encompass several concept and one which in some cases allowed people to learn those concepts more easily than if you went and explained them in detail.

    It's not real but it is a useful heuristic.
     
  5. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    So...which one of those four? Or is it an interchangable term for all of them individually and collectively?

    What do people have against technical language?

    More easily, maybe. More effective and more fully I very much doubt. It's also going to damage their ability to learn the technical explanations later, as we've seen.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2012
  6. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Interchangeably and collectively. Tbh we used the term very little. My sensei generally preferred the term energy but the meaning was the same.

    As an example if he was talking about the energy in a strike it could mean the force, speed, and direction. When you talk about blending with someone's force, energy, or ki, the meaning is the same. If a more lengthy explanation is required than it is.

    I many cases I think people use it to give the art that eastern mysticism. Personally i find the term unnecessary as there are terms which are equal in practical use without the mystical baggage attached.
     
  7. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Body mechanics and automatisation... and possibly placebo/mind-technique-belief-in-oneself-thingie :)
     
  8. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    What do people have against using technical words accurately? I've never understood it.

    Speed and direction is the vector of a strike.
    Force depends on whether you're talking about the accelerating force driving the strike, or the impulse at the target.

    Energy is neither of these things.

    Every time someone mixes up force, energy and ki so badly it makes baby Einstein cry.

    I agree - I just wish people would use those terms correctly.
     
  9. Aikidojomofo

    Aikidojomofo Valued Member

    To me, in the simplest terms Ki = Energy. But just using the term "energy" is not necessarily any less vague than using the term "Ki". It's all about the context in the manner which you use it, and a Lilbunnyrabit pointed out the correct use of terms involved in what people perceive as the use of energy

    Energy exist in many forms, physically speaking and it is all completely understandable from a scientific perspective. That's pretty much where I stand on the Ki in Aikido. It is the harnessing and understanding of the uses of energy, potential/kinetic, laws of motion, dynamics, pivots and fulcrums, etc. When you look at it that way from a purely technical stand point then there is no mystery behind it, just more advanced levels of understanding as the person improves.

    My instructor is very technical with his method and very rarely uses the term Ki in any mystical context, in fact the only times I have heard him uses it is with a little smirk and a twinkle in his eye. Now, his teacher, Takeno Sensei (arguably one of the best Aikido teachers in the world) is also an incredibly technical teacher, he explains everything in technical terms. "this foot goes here, that one goes there" he teaches the basic mechanics of Aikido over and over and over and, during the times I have trained with him have not heard him hide behind the mystical interpretation of Ki. If you want to know how something works he will happily show you all of it

    Now, when I have heard Ki used in a more unquantifiable way is in connection with the phrase "fighting spirit" (Something Koyo spke of). Now I think it's a vague use of the term because a "fighting spirit" is uniquely perceived by each individual. It's a purely internal, psychological thing, which no other person would understand in the same way. On the exterior you may comment that someone has "A fighting spirit" but you could never understand what's going on inside that persons head.
     
  10. Falcord

    Falcord Valued Member

    To me, Ki is a dangerous term, with a meaning that will always be subject to opinion because of its cultural heritage, which makes it bad at defining whatever it is supposed to stand for, when there are other words that describe such phenomena in a clear way.

    Whatever Ki actually is, there is nothing good that can be obtained from the use of the term and should be condemned and eventually eliminated. At best it's confusing, at worst it's a tool for charlatans. So yep, I fully agree with the premise of the original post.

    On a completely unrelated note, I hope popular culture ends up stripping the word "energy" from all its undeserved glamour so that it stops being abused the way it is. As Robert Emden put it: In the huge manufactory of natural processes, the principle of entroy occupies the position of manager, for it dictates the manner and method of the whole business, whilst the principle of energy merely does the book-keeping, balancing credits and debits.

    I cringe when I see pretty much anything intangible referred as "energy" when there are beautiful words that describe precisely and directly what is being discussed...
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  11. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Maybe it is the right word, for them.
    I knew an American who moved to Japan and lived there a couple decades. He became fluent in the language. He was a judoka before he went there, and took up karate, so we could talk martial arts. When we were talking once about "ki" in aikido, he said the commentators at baseball games in Japan use the same word in reference to powerful hits. When a player swings hard and gets a good hit on a ball, they say, "He put a lot of ki into that!" Same word, he said.

    Now, I don't speak the language, but it made me think that maybe it's us silly English speakers who are confused. Maybe "ki" is exactly the right word if you're Japanese.
     
  12. Xascat

    Xascat New Member

    Ki

    Well, I trained at the Yoshinkan Hombu Dojo in the early nineties and with the late Alan Ruddock (who trained with O Sensei for three years back in the sixties), for about ten years. Neither Alan or anyone at the Yoshinkan claimed that Ki was any kind of "force", indeed Shioda Gozo himself said "if you want Ki, go to the temple".
    I think a lot of Aikidoka with many years training under their belts become efficient purely by trial and error - that is, the body 'learns' how to become effective after time. A classic example would be Ikkyo tenkan. Most Aikidoka that I have come across still believe that centrifugal force is at play - a force that doesn't actually exist. This inevitably makes for a very difficult technique to both learn and teach. Those who have a mastery of the technique as a result of trial and error or an understanding of the physics involved are often seen as having strong Ki etc....

    A bit of physics is worth a shed load of Ki in my humble opinion.
     
  13. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    I'm not sure I'm reading you right here. It sounds to me like you're asserting that ki isn't a worthless term, and then in the next breath saying that you never use it.
     
  14. rivend

    rivend Valued Member

    To me it's my will to do something,karma or the personality you may show outwardly to people, and something that gives me some extra push of energy when exhausted but your inner self drive makes you continue .

    The word in my opinion has been expressed deferentially by different cultures.But the basic motivation is probably the same.
     
  15. Young Noob

    Young Noob Valued Member

    The Japanese definitions include spirit, mind, heart (all three of which I have found to literally mean something more like intention or will), nature, disposition, motivation, intention (as mentioned), mood, feelings, atmosphere, and essence. Ki in the Japanese martial arts is fairly straight forward to me. It's basically the the will you apply to each technique.

    As for the Chinese Qi. They really think that is a spiritual force that somehow affects and can be affected by the physical world. But you were mostly talking about the Japanese Ki anyway.

    As for using the term ki to refer to whatever you decide it is, it is not complicating things any more unnecessarily than saying waza or kata.

    Just my humble opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  16. poulperadieux

    poulperadieux New Member

    For me, Ki is the synchronisation of intent and action.

    The rest, it's Occham razor that tells me what to think, If I can reproduce ki effects by simple things with a simple explanation, I choose that one.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrAX8dEZWJY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrAX8dEZWJY[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JU7rYLMaxQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JU7rYLMaxQ[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVnqHud7Jo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBVnqHud7Jo[/ame]

    I think Tsui Sheung Tin calls it "Niem lik"

    http://poulperadieux.com/2011/12/26/niem-lik/
     
  17. Instructor_Jon

    Instructor_Jon Effectiveness First

    We don't bother about Ki much. I personally think focosing on mechanics and technique is a better use of time.
     
  18. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    1. Completely agree. Not only does the definition of Ki differ between cultures. But it also differs between sub-groups with different cultures and individuals. The definition of Ki is a personal thing each individual must arrive at on their own.

    2. I partly agree. But only because I believe there is quite a large mental element to it that obviously goes beyond simple physics. As a Ki Aikido practitioner I was always taught that my mental state would be reflected through my body. Which is no different to the beliefs of modern day athletes and sports men and women.

    3. Again I partly agree. Any received wisdom or philosophy which is not properly understood will lead students astray. Just take a moment to think of all the martial arts myths and halve truths you've ever heard and substitute them for the word "ki" and we're in the same boat.

      I also believe that the word "ki" has been intentionally abused in martial arts as it has become essential to make a profit. There are teachers who will intentionally use this ambiguous concept to obfuscate the nonsense they are pedalling as martial arts.

      Then there are the genuine true believers who are themselves on a life long journey trying to understand something they cannot understand. And then they have to explain it to someone else. They're in the position of trying to put the nature of the unknown universe into words that make some sort of sense as ki is supposed to be some form of energy that permeates everything or just some things. Depends on your take on the subject. Ki in this sense takes on something of a religious context.

    4. I disagree here. "Ki" isn't a mysterious word. It's a foreign word often used out of context or often misunderstood. Just as the key to understanding the English language words "to, too and two" lies in understanding the context of the conversation. Understanding the use of the word "ki" lies in understanding the context in which it is being used.

      Ikkyo, nikkyo and sankyo mean absolutely nothing in Japanese without context.

    I never spent much time on Aikiweb. But from my brief encounter with that forum, those who talked about Ki seemed to be fairly hardcore traditionalist or believers. So I'm not surprised they'd be offended by your dissection of their beliefs which reduces them to simple common-sense physical acts. Especially if you missed out the mental component.

    From what I understand of the things Koichi Tohei said and wrote about Ki. He was talking about the mind and the subconscious signals people broadcast when he used the word Ki. So people are likely annoyed at you because you have misunderstood what it is they believe. And then proceeded to tell them it's all nonsense.

    If the shoe were on the other foot I think you'd be pretty annoyed as well.
     
  19. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    I suppose you're right about that. I must confess to being a little sheltered. The club I started in has very little contact with other clubs (the people running the club have ****ed a lot of people off--one of the reasons I eventually left), so I wasn't really prepared for such varied differences of opinion.
     
  20. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    And here again is where we need to have clear technical definitions.

    Centrifugal force most definitely does exist, it is an apparent (also known as fictitious) force which emerges in a rotating system. Now, it is true that there is a way the mathematics can be expressed such that you do not need a centrifugal force, however that doesn't change the actual vector. Essentially it's a case of two different ways of expressing the same idea - and all the fuss about it not existing is due to people not understanding technical terms.


    Well yes, there is a mental component - however that mental component doesn't violate the laws of physics as we understand them. It is still a physical process.

    Completely agree.

    I'll withhold comment for now. I think my opinions of religion have been made clear enough in the past.


    There's the problem - it's a foreign word. There is no reason to use it in a discussion in any language other than Japanese, except to obfuscate and mystify. Marketing, pure and simple.
     

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