Western politics

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by bujingodai, Mar 16, 2014.

  1. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    So, a good portion of Western arts I can gather are groupings of fight styles or methodology. Hence a hybrid modern art.
    Other than say older one like fencing and such, that have more history but I think still compiled.
    Is there a political wall there that states what is legit and not legit.
    Like, is there an art of Western derivative that is considered a rip off or not legitimate to it's claims?
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And I question Jim Arvantiz's claims a lot too, although he clearly has some level of skill

    There is also "Marbo", represented on here by David H

    Fishy origins don't necessarily mean something has no value of course, but it does make you question why invent things then
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Systema, Stav, Irish Stick Fighting / shillelagh, marbo, Defendo, loads of Nogi guys claiming to teach catchascatchcan when all they have is youtube.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Oh and Hikuta, Aha-Set (both claim Ancient Egyptian origins) and in the US "52 Blocks" a so called "jail system"

    There is also the SCARS type stuff, but that makes no claims to antiquity of course
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And "BKB" has a lot of charlatans too
     
  7. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    True. Bare-Knuckling does suffer from 'claims of legitimacy'.

    'Defendo' (the Bill Underwood system) is legit. He created it as a non-military type of his first system 'Combato' (a WW2 H2H system).

    BUT! Some of the other folks claiming to teach 'Defendo' possess no real link to Mr Underwood or his teachings. Make of that what you will.
     
  8. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    The Catch community has a lot of unfortunate in-fighting. Matt Furey and Tony Cecchine do nothing but trash-talk each other, and Jake Shannon trash-talks them both. Shannon's claim to fame is that he's brought recognition to some of the old timers like Dick Cardinal and the late Billy Robinson. Cecchine's stuff looks good to me, but his "lineage" is murky. Furey is a legit collegiate and San Shou guy, but I'd consider his sub skills dubious, and certainly not top-notch; he's a better salesman than anything. I'm not even sure he sells himself as a Catch guy anymore. There's other guys out there who have dubious links back to CACC. I get the impression that lineage in WMA wasn't nearly as important, and therefor cataloged, as it was in East Asia. Catch in particular sort of went "underground" around the Depression era, as amateur rules took out the more dangerous moves (like subs) and professional wrestling became almost entirely worked. Add the influx of Judo/Jujitsu as the "self defense" systems (wrestling and boxing had served that purpose until then) and it would be decades before competitive Catch matches started showing up again.

    I'm with Hannibal when it comes to Arvantiz. The earliest book I could find by him is clearly a ripoff of "Tao of JKD". I own one of his mid-90's books and have seen his most recent, and based on those, the guy started to incorporate more grappling, but I doubt there's much, if any, historical Pankration. The more recent books are basically "poor MMA" and "better MMA".
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I know Jake personally and he is a really decent guy. We agree only about 60% of the time on anything none CACC related, but that's about average for friends i suppose

    Jake never has put himself personally forward as any authority - he just sees himself as a conduit for those who are. Certainly Billy Robinson is a legit CACC man and HAS trained Jake for a length of time. My own coach says Jake is perfectly competent on the mat (and that is a compliment because he smashes me), but has also no interest in competing at his stage in life

    Furey has credentials through Gotch, but spent a pretty short time with him. That is a bit like me claiming I am a BJJ black belt because I trained with Jack Mcvicker for a year. Significantly Giotch also completely disowned him. Furey has shied away from teh CACC field in recent years, and I think that teh resurgence of legit practitioners is one reason why.

    Cecchine has even murkier credentials again, and has an almost rabid fanbase who get really antsy when you mention that fact. The fact Furey and he were in cahoots at one point suggests that their split was less than amicable. However, Tony DID have Lou Thesz speaking highly of him, and Lou is another legit guy from back in the day so at least Tony has that going for him
     
  10. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    There is no one true CaCC. At best, it's a highly mutable rule set that changed depending on time period, geographic area, and what rules the contestants would agree to. I have some period CaCC books that have joint locks and chokes. I have others that don't. I have still others that have only a little or caution that techniques XYZ is illegal.

    CaCC is just a set of rules, and a lot less a specific "style" than what many people would like to believe. Any half-way decent grappler can train for whatever variation of the rule set is agreed to and, if he uses techniques that can be shown to be historically accurate within any CaCC text (which is pretty much anything, really), then he's a genuine CaCC wrestler.

    Don't make it more than it is.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  11. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    Maybe. Sorta. Sometimes.

    Pft. Don't think there isn't a vast and storied history of in-art politics for fencing complete with fights over legitimacy of technique and lineage. They weren't even ended with duels. Look at the history of Spanish Destreza alone. Gah!

    All of it. None of it. Pft. Just spar 'em. If their skills are legit then what they're teaching is legit. That's pretty much the closest you can come in WMA.

    Take the Knightly arts, for instance. Pretty much none of what's currently being taught under the Longsword banner such as the Fiore stuff, the German stuff, or even the somewhat difficult to find English stuff has any known direct lineage. It's all reconstruction from source, sometimes with a little "frog DNA" thrown in. But then you've got some stuff like Jogo du Pau which some Portuguese islander maestros claim is in the lineage of Knightly spear work, transmuted by generations to a stick art. But is it? Pft. Who knows!

    Is Bare Knuckle Boxing "legit?" There is no verifiable lineage of instruction to either the LPR or the Broughton rule sets that we can find. But there's a lot of documentation of what the rule set allowed, instructional manuals, and boxers didn't stop teaching each new generation. If you go take lessons from a Boxer and then learn the LPR/Broughton rule set, then you've got a valid lineage. Sorta.

    Or Bowie Knife. Jim never taught anybody that we know of. He certainly didn't teach the French Maestros who taught bowie knife in New Orleans in the "Dueling Oaks" tradition. Yet they're generally considered "real." Or Biddle or Styers? They didn't have any direct link to Jim or N.O. yet both are considered "bowie knife" masters.

    People worry about stuff like Stav and wonder if it's bull crap. Who cares?

    "If it works- if he's dead and you're alive- it's not wrong." - John Lennox.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  12. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Actually my martial art can be traced back to Nov 10 1775 in Philadelphia PA. It is the art of shooting, skillfully along with a "few" other things thrown in. There is no question of lineage.

    I'm sure there are some Canadian organizations like this which you might be eligible to join.

    :)
     
  13. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    This, watch footage of jake's King of Catch tournaments or Roy Woods catch tournaments from recent years, there's as much ratio of good matches to bad as any other grappling, as much stalling as BJJ or Judo it just happens to occuer in the turtle position not 50/50 or fighting for grips. Catch is cool and it has produced great stuff thought its history but it's not quiet the mystical lost western grappling style thats ready to reawaken and dominate over everything else it's often made out to be.
     
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  14. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Or, we could simply admit that there are many flavors of grappling and that grappling is just grappling. Jacketed and belted wrestling isn't limited to Asia and styles that look very much like CACC can be found in India.

    Lineage doesn't matter if your grappling works in your rule set and you can see the similarities between it and other styles of grappling. A good grappler should be able to transition between styles, with some training of course. Grips, balance, throws, take downs, hold downs/pins and submissions should look pretty much the same no matter what the style.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2014
  15. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    False Teacher and Apostate! Your lineage is not only false but infinitesimal in length!

    I study the one true art and it traces to Berthold the Black!

    (and so it goes ;) )

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  16. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Be careful infidel, there are none who stand before the might of Uncle Sam and his Misguided Children.
     
  17. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Lineage only matters if you are laying claim to one.
     
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    True, but honesty is a good indicator of absence of cowmanure too.
     
  19. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    I wouldn't go that far. There's a lot of fertilizer that has apparently sifted into "traditional" arts with long lineages.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  20. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter

    I guess, it's always confusing for me too.

    How do you show progress in western arts, rank? other than belts and titles. I gather if you are in a hall with 5 or so thats not a problem. But if you have say 30 students or more. How does one tell a level? If at all.
     

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