Mod edit: This was split from both Aikido versus kicks and Martial Art of Aikido - Training in the hopes of preserving the kicks and training threads as discussions of aikido versus kicks, and of aikido training. Hopefully, we've resolved our differences and can now sweetly discuss whether and how much Japanese should be used in English dojos. This thread will be locked if the discussion doesn't go nicely. - Aikimac ================================ Arts against the Bokken/Jo/Tanto. As I've said in the Aikido forum before Dave, Kenneth Williams Sensei (as in Kenneth Williams who was taught Aikido amongst other things by Abby Sensei at the Hut) dropped virtually all the Japanese from his teaching of Aikido when he broke ties with Japan. My teacher was taught by Kenneth Williams Sensei so very little Japanese terminology in my training. Good thing Aikido is a physical budo then
I'm surmising that you don't do seminars with Japanese instructors who [generally] use their native language to describe what they do?
I wouldn't expect anything else. Although I'm told Tohei Sensei spoke fluent english and did so at seminars in the USA. But no we didn't. By the time I got involved with Aikido which was only 10 years ago Williams Sensei had already made the split from Japan. Which is a shame I think.
I can probably kick in a couple seconds too, but more importantly, I speak and read English. If you don't know the English words for these things then one might think that you can't describe these things, and if you can't describe them then you don't really know what it is, you know what I'm saying? Maybe I'm completely wacko, but it seems to me that if I don't have to learn the Japanese founder's Japanese religion or Japanese ethical belief system to learn his martial art, then I don't have to learn the Japanese words for how to punch or kick either. I dunno. Makes sense to me.
Mac.. Your with ASU right`? Does Saotome Sensei teach waza using the Japanese names or does he and his instructors use exclusively English names for waza"? No disrespect to you or anyone reading this but; I strongly believe that aspects of the language particularly the names of waza and generic terms which describe how and why we do things are important to learn and, if not due to [whatever reason] the art becomes that much less credible as a Japanese art, I may not particularly follow the philosophical aspects of the art but, I'm not advocating that it should be dropped or forgotte~ about. When does this line of devolution stop? Koyo has repeatedly said let aikido change the person, not the person change aikido, yet, learning aspects of the language which is associated with the waza is just as much"a part of the art as sa{ Ikkyo ude osae0or shihonage, but there are westerners who are crrogant enough to determine that 'this and that' is no longer required and therefore no longer knclude it in the curriculum, that IMO is not acceptable if the art they0assume to study is called aikido. Do we stop bowing to the kamiza, to each other simply because we're not Japanese ? Do we in fact actually need a kamiza in the first place under this doctrine ? And at what point of this devolutionary process does aikido end up being some Mickey Mouse bastardised rubbish ? As I said at the beginning, no offence intended, I'm merely expressing my opinion openly and honestly and not directed at any"one or group of individuals.
The reason for learning the Japanese is that if you go to practise or train in a different country everyone can roughly understand what the Sensei is saying - it's just a matter of "standard".
I was under the impression you had spent a great deal of time researching the history of Aikido with in the United Kingdon Dave? Maybe you missed this article? Here's a small extract for those who can't be bothered to read the whole thing. I also beleive the Yoshinkan use a terminology which predates the current nameing convention for techniques etc. For example Ikajo has become Ikkyo. So who is it that's teaching "Mickey Mouse bastardised rubbish"? The guy who wanders around internet forums refusing to utter his grade but doesn't think twice to tell us all he's not only an Aikido teacher with god knows how many years experience but he also teaches Iaido. Or, people who have been practicing Aikido since it was introduced to the UK by a teacher who apparently showed the form only and didn't use names at all? It would seem to me it doesn't matter what a technique is called. It either works or it doesn't. No offence intended.
Dave -- what are those kicks you're talking about? In English, please. There's a difference between using the term "ikkyo" and using Japanese for blah-blah-blah kick. The difference is that ikkyo has no English translation, but "kick to the side of the head" obviously does, as evidenced by English names in karate and TKD and kempo books. Some terms are standard all over the planet: ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, etc. Some are not. Kicks are certainly not. "Bokuto" is not a standard term either. I think it's the same as "bokken" in my style of aikido, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
My statement, of which, was actally a question for you to answer, or at least contribute an educated opinion too, wasn't accusing anyone of doing anything. It was a hypothetical situation. From what you've continued to write, I suggest you've just read it and plunged in feet first. Are you suggesting that the likes of Ralph Reynolds, Derek Eastman, Henry Ellis, Eric Dollimore, Hyden Foster have never used the Japanese terminology for their aikido ? I ask you when was the last time you had the opportunity to train with each or any of these people ? With the exception of Mr. Dollimore, I've trained with each of these pioneers of British Aikido and I can assure you every single one of them used Japanese names (and their English equiv't) Aikido has moved on considerably in the last 50 years, or hadn't you noticed ? Wow... I pushed the right buttons there didn't I.. Seems to me mate that you, for some reason I care less to contemplate; take my opinions, apply them to yourself then retaliate, you've done this a number of times and, you seem unable to hold a "debate" which is of course people discussing opinions often which, don't always suit everyone. You've attacked my credibility more than once before on this forum and I think this says volumes about what you think about me as an individual. Yup I've done aikido for a considerable number of years and, to be blunt Aikiwolfie, my yudansha grade has nothing to do with you or anyone else outside of the UKA. Yes I teach Iaido but what does that have to do with this thread/discussion? I see you clutching at straws to make a weak point valid. I "wander" around internet forums ? LMAO gimme a break bud, sounds like you have an issue with me so why not come right out with it. None taken I can assure you.
I had to look up that word because I've never heard it. None of my aikido dojos have had a kamiza because none of aikido dojos were host to any Japanese deities, at least not when I was a student. I hope that doesn't mean that I'm learning bad aikido. There's always been a shomen wall, though. We bow as a group to the shomen wall at the beginning and end of every class.
Kamiza does not denote "deities" or such. It usually holds a photgraph of O sensei and the reason for bowing to it is to recognise the lifelong endeavour given to the creation of aikido instiling a humble and serious attitude in the trainee no mystical conotations. As for aikido versus whatever. It is the one with the strongest fighting spirit not the best mawashi or irrimi nage who shall prevail. I have taught SAS troopers and believe me their confidence in themselves and decisiveness would wash over technicaly "superior" fighters. Koyo
Is there a photo of the founder on or along that wall ? Shomen (as a position) is simply denoted as the highest place in the dojo, this is opposite the Shimoza (where the students sit) Regards
Dude, surely you don't bow to a wall, it's denoted as the shomen because it holds the kamiza and therefore an image of the founder and often if its a permenent fixture, an image of the 2nd Doshu Ueshiba K.
I've never heard of a "kamiza." Therefore, for me it's not a "shomen" because it holds a kamiza. There is no kamiza. If there was a kamiza, someone would have used the word before. Rather, it's a "shomen wall" because (1) it's the designated front or head of the training area, and (2) that's where we hang a picture of OSensei and a picture of the founder of our dojo and a script of "aikido" by the founder of our organization. Both reasons. My other school had a picture of OSensei, a bokken, and a small vase with flowers set in a permanent display at the shomen wall. My other school had a picture of OSensei, a caligraphy of "aikido," and a bokken.
The shomen is merely a place, a position in a dojo; it is as such because it will contain artefacts (usually positioned about the center of the wall) relating to the founder of a particular art, this may be a physical thing, for instance a sword. More common is a picture, in our case of Ueshiba M. The entire wall although being the "shomen" has no particular significance other than it is often along which the instructor and his seniors may sit (generally in front and slightly to the side of the kamiza). The only significant part of the shomen is the 'area' containing the art specific [whatever], a wall is a wall and it's purpose is to hold up the roof, as you illustrated with the inclusion of various combinations of artefacts signifying the focal point on the shomen, you have a kamiza.
Our kamiza was a separate item clearly placed on a shelf high on the shomen wall as the 'seat of honour' for the kami deities. This link explains in brief what it is, with nice pics, and has other links on dojo etiquette etc: http://www.angelfire.com/bug2/aikido/kamizar.html The shomen wall would have pictures of dead lineage instructors and a rack with jo, bokken and tanto. Bowing to them is a mark of respect and a reminder of how we ourselves should teach and learn. Ancestral and religious connotations need not be introduced - it is respect, pure and simple. Our kamiza was a small (scale model of a) wooden shrine - a home for the spirits or 'kami' (sorry to contradict, Koyo). There's plenty of material on this and I'm shocked, frankly, that so few seem to know how to set up a formal dojo with a shomen, weapons rack etc. It was part of our Shudokan instructor training! The term has since been watered down and O Sensei's picture placed on the 'seat of honour' instead of the deities. Clapping at the start of a session was originally to alert the benign spirits to the commencement of training, and to awaken and invite those 'kami' to attend and bless the training. (Not to push this too far as I'm relying on a dim memory, but the activity of training itself would be regarded as a spiritual act, as would 'misogi' etc. which accompanied it. This would certainly be a Buddhist (Zen?) view and I think I have read that this is also true of Shinto, but I can't remember where. ) Now I have no problem with anyone who does not believe in the 'kami' and does not want to take part in any ceremony. However, bowing simply denotes respect and I would not be happy without this element. No respect, no Aikido IMHO. Shioda Sensei (Yoshinkan founder) would use Japanese terminology. I am told that he used earlier terms such as 'Ikkajo' because that is what O Sensei used at the time he trained with him, and that the changes to the 'yo' suffix came from O Sensei as he taught later in life. Use of Japanese IMHO is much more precise and concise and allows a universality of training internationally and across styles, hence it is the most practical as well as the most respectful to the lineages. My Sensei would give us both the Japanese and an English translation. He related that Shioda's usual method in Japan was simply to point at the (Kanji?) Japanese lettering for a technique, chosen from a list which ran all around the walls. Maybe calling out a number had the same origin - no need to explain or translate as Japanese knowledge was already assumed. Using English means using a translation which may not be precise and will certainly not be the same elsewhere. I was astounded when a local club demonstrated a technique and I asked if it was 'shomen uchi ikkajo' and was told by the 3rd Dan that he had no idea, it was just 'first technique'. So they didn't even bother identifying the attack, even in English! English may be the universal language of commerce, but without Japanese I feel progress in Aikido would be greatly hindered. P.S. If you train in a sports centre etc I'm not criticising you for not having all this stuff in place. One person alone in a forest can still IMHO be practising 'Aikido'. But I'll make no apology for recommending a dedicated dojo of your own. Once we had our own dojo it did seem to acquire its own atmosphere that made training so much more pleasant and meaningful than being in a hall competing with aerobics music and flying shuttlecocks!
Agreed .. Sorry mate I know how you get when people agree with you lol. At the end of the day no one can escape the fact that we're studying a Japanese martial art and, the more we westerners remove aspects of 'Japanese' from it, eventually we no longer have aikido.
Kiaiki No contradiction there kami spirit we all have our own definition of that sorry to agree with you again, koyo
