Training like elite athletes

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Mangosteen, Mar 20, 2014.

  1. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Thanks for your post on your experiences Van Zandt.
    It's a perfect real life example of what I was trying to say.

    Genuinely, your training log posts are what got me back into muay thai and keep me lifting even when i dont feel like it.
    even after all your crazy injuries and some disappointments you still keep training because it's something you love and you always try to get better.
     
  2. Christianson

    Christianson Valued Member

    I am a bit disconcerted that you say this, as from everything else you said in that post I would have thought you agreed. You are putting it in terms of "intent" rather than "good form," but we both seem to be saying both that training without intent/good form only ingrains bad habits, and that being able to maintain intent/good form is something that must be built up. What exactly doesn't match your experiences? Are you saying beginners should be able to correctly execute a technique hundreds of times immediately?
     
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm saying that "good form" is relative to the abilities of the person doing it.

    So, if we take the punch example, for a beginner my critera for good form is firstly: "would they damage themselves if I put my face in front of that?" secondly: "would I want to put my face in front of that?". If the answer is "no" to both then I am happy for them to practice that at home and refine their technique in class.

    I would not be comfortable with someone leaving my class having been shown something they have no hope of practicing correctly. I would feel that to be counter-productive to their progress.

    As I said, I don't teach swordwork, and perhaps the priorities of your training are different (note; not worse), but as I said in another thread recently; for what I'm teaching effect is prime, then comes refinement. As long as someone doesn't go off on their own for months practicing things all wrong, ironing-out poor form isn't a problem, and the bottom line is as long as they can reliably reproduce the desired effect, improving their execution is the icing on the cake.
     
  4. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I see value to both approaches.
     
  5. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Would it be too bold for me to add that the "elite" has a lot of background support?

    You read about how the pros have separate S&C coach, nutritionists, a coach for each individual MA etc.
    Whilst a lot of "us" has pretty much 1 coach/club and we monitor everything ourselves.

    When I cut weight and compete, I don't have a Mike Dolce cooking and delivering my food. I have me, threads/members on MAP, a bit of willpower and a slight bit of common sense.

    (An oversimplification) the Elite essentially have to turn up and do the work..
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, like I said it's different priorities.

    I doubt many people take up sword arts in order to survive a scrap. I want people to be as effective as possible in as short a time as possible. Once they increase their survivability, that's when they can concentrate on the niceties of technique.

    But, I still think that perhaps an intermediary set of exercises could be beneficial, something that could be practiced at home and would inform the intended practice. Seems a shame for enthusiasm to be a hinderance!
     
  7. Christianson

    Christianson Valued Member

    Oh, I see, and agree. Starting from day one, there are exercises that new students can and should be doing at home to reinforce basics. It's just that cutting exercises aren't one of them, even though at later stages that will dominate your solo practice. Which just goes to back to Zaad's point again, I think. It's not that beginners should not practice, or even not practice very much. It's that a training menu appropriate for someone who is just starting, or even someone reasonably competent, is not the same as a training menu for an elite.
     
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It was just a misunderstanding then, I completely agree with the above, the bolded bit especially :)
     
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Wow, really?:jawdrop:

    Xiu Liang. He's only decent I guess.:rolleyes:

    If track and field was as popular as other sports in China, I'm sure you'd see even more elite athletes in this sport. There are plenty of elite Asian sprinters, who are just off being world class(the elite of the elite) for the 100M, but again this race has become a bit of a Holy Grail and the fastest are leaving everybody else behind.

    According to Wiki, you pretty much have to be of African heritage to matter when it comes to the 100m. However, that wasn't always the case, and in the 1932 Olympics there was a Japanese runner, Yoshioka Takayoshi, who jointly held the world record in 1935. Recall too, that it was athletes like Eddie Tolan, Jesse Owens, and Ralph Metcalfe who paved the way for later athletes.


    Gender and ethnicity

    Only male sprinters have beaten the 100 meter, 10-second barrier nearly all of them being of West African descent. Namibian (formerly South-West Africa) Frankie Fredericks became the first man of non-West African heritage to achieve the feat in 1991 and in 2003 Australia's Patrick Johnson (who has Irish and Indigenous Australian heritage) became the first sub-10-second runner without an African background.[11][12][13][14]
    In 2010, Frenchman Christophe Lemaitre became the first white European under ten seconds (although Poland's Marian Woronin had unofficially surpassed the barrier with a time of 9.992 seconds in 1984).[15] In 2011, Zimbabwean Ngonidzashe Makusha became the 76th man to break the barrier, yet only the fourth man not of West African descent.[16] No sprinter from Asia or East and North Africa has officially achieved this feat,[17][18] though Koji Ito of Japan[19] and Zhang Peimeng of China[20] have both recorded times of exactly ten seconds.
    It is believed that biological factors may be largely responsible for the notable success in sprinting events enjoyed by athletes of West African descent. Chief among these is a preponderance of natural fast twitch muscle fibers, which aid in quicker reaction times. Scientists have concluded that elite-level sprinting is virtually impossible in the absence of the ACTN3 protein, a "speed gene" most common among persons of West African descent that renders fast twitch muscle fibers fast. African American 200 meter and 400 meter world champion Michael Johnson has suggested that the presence of ACTN3 is at the root of the success of these athletes in sprinting events.[17][21] Top sprinters of differing ancestry, such as Christophe Lemaitre, are believed to be exceptions in that they too likely have the genes favourable for sprinting.[21]
    Colin Jackson, an athlete with mixed ethnic background and former world record holder in the 110 metre hurdles,[22] noted that both his parents were talented athletes and suggested that biological inheritance was the greatest influence, rather than any perceived racial factor. Furthermore, successful black role models in track events may reinforce the racial disparity.[18]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_metres
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't have time to look up the research right now, but Michael Johnson presented an interesting documentary about how the American slave trade may have led to a genetic predisposition to athletic traits in African Caribbeans: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/michael-johnson-survival-of-the-fastest/episode-guide
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  11. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    These days, yes. But looking at the Bakumatsu period of Japan, the ability to kill people with swords was a very important skill to have. Certain schools terrified others due to their style of charging in swords swinging in a chaotic, take no prisoners kind of blitz. Their training, still conducted today, is basically crude and repetitive striking of different training materials with their heavy training swords.

    Same principle though, simple movements performed repeatedly with progressive resistance.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5dAUfTQjSw"]Yakumaru Jigen-ryu Demonstration I - YouTube[/ame]

     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Wow! :eek:

    Well I certainly don't have people screaming and thrashing about like that in my classes.

    I was thinking more along the lines of boxing for our beginner's syllabus - it can be taught in a matter of days to be effective, but to master and refine it takes years of practice.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2014
  13. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Really?

    I teach boxing and I'd have to call this into question.

    Maybe it's a question of what can be defined as effective, but whatever the level, I can't see that anyone can be in anyway effective after a few days.
     
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Well obviously you wouldn't be winning any competitions, but if you spent 36 hours with a boxing coach I'd expect you to be able to hit stuff, have a roughly functioning guard, and move around a bit.

    Basically, I'd expect you to be better at boxing after 36 hours tuition than someone who had no tuition. That's all.

    Conversely, if someone without any relevant skills or abilities spent 36 hours learning a jump reverse crescent kick, they would likely be just as unable to do it after that time as someone who had never been shown how.

    It's what Christianson was saying about different menus for different stages of learning.
     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'd learn 'em it in that time. :)
    Hitting pads and everything.
     
  16. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Do you actually cover 36 hours boxing in a "matter of days"?

    There is a difference between 36 hours of tuition with a boxing coach and training over a matter of days.

    I also believe anyone can "hit stuff", but as always it's about what you do when they hit you, how you move and so on.
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ok then, change it to whatever technique you like that has requisite skills and attributes that cannot be gained by most people in 36 hours.

    All I'm getting at is things that are simple to learn, but hard to master.
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Um, yes. 6 days of 6 hours. That's what I meant by a matter of days.

    I didn't mean 90 minutes of training over a week. I would have said "90 minutes" if that's what I meant.

    Not everyone knows how, or where to hit to make it effective. Accuracy of strikes will improve with practice. I don't disagree about being hit, moving etc., I thought that was implicit in the term "boxing".
     
  19. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    It's not what you said though and it does seem you've changed your meanings to suit questions asked.

    How many days per week and for how many hours are your classes available?

    That's a lot of tuition for a multi-faceted style. Or are we talking about seminars on boxing that you run?
     
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    What's not what I said?

    I was talking about training time. I'm not changing my meanings whatsoever. It seems like you are inventing meanings for me to create an argument.

    Though I have had students successfully use what they've been taught with as little as 6 hours training time.

    Students are welcome to train with me pretty much as often as they like. Though people's schedules don't allow that. Most will train once or twice per week.

    I don't teach boxing, I was merely using it as an example of techniques that are relatively quick to pick up, even though they will take years to perfect.
     

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