Tire Striking. Generating Power.

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by BahadZubu, Jul 11, 2016.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    There is also the parrying technique where you deliberately make your opponent's weapon rebound, but I've never seen that work so well that they get hit with their own weapon.
     
  2. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

    Well I've actually cut with a fair amount of very sharp blades. My good friend (and teacher) is a collector so I've cut with Barong, Sansibar,Kampilan... I totally agree that technique makes a big difference when cutting, however I would rather have a powerful strike with a blade in case the angle hits flat, wearing armor etc etc. My technique in the video shows you should keep your arm relaxed and swing through the target, the same way you would with a blade. Also, I have seen lots of videos where despite being cut the attacker fights through it, so I tend to err on the side of caution and practice powerful striking with good body mechanics.
     
  3. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

  4. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

    As for rebound on the tire, if you are really flowing through your strike it shouldn't be an issue. You can also do other strikes (Hopefully I can post another video soon). Personally I just haven't found anything as useful as a tire. If you are hitting wavemaster, heavy bag with a stick you should easily be damaging it.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I was thinking more about the short ranged use of cutting. Cutting motions are inherently small, so with something like a sabre/cutlass, the weight of the blade comes to bear with a fairly short range of motion. I have seen some with a range of power around six inches... able to break things with that minimal movement.

    Yeah, that's why I'm concerned about damaging the heavy bag and just use the short ranged stick striking, such as pattern work. I think if I was to strike at long range, I wouldn't have a heavy bag for long.

    I might be missing the point though. When I think of power striking at long range, I'm thinking larger range of motion. I'm also thinking that the thrust is every effective at longer range and that is another aspect of stick the tire might help with.
     
  6. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

    Though even in short range you should be eating up the bag. Ideally you should be able to generate as much power in short range as in long range.
     
  7. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Well mass is always a factor in cutting potential but because of inertia.
     
  8. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I would say it makes the biggest difference. It doesn't matter how powerfully you hit, if the edge isn't aimed right and you don't have good end mechanics you're not going to cut very well. Conversely if you have good technique you can use relatively little power. To me it sounds like you're either assuming your technique is not good or trying to make up for a miss, which doesn't work out so well.

    And as for armor FMA derives from the period where the Filipinos were fighting unarmoured Spaniards. The blades aren't well suited to dealing with armor and neither have I ever seen FMA specific techniques to that effect. Nor are you likely to encounter armor yourself and if you do, again, the tool does the work so pick the right one for the right job. You won't make a light blade cut significantly better through armor by swinging it as hard as you can nor pierce armor better by stabbing the wrong type of tip harder.

    My point was that beyond developing initial power for overcoming the moment of inertia of the blade power is severely overrated in bladed combat. People who are significantly bigger and stronger don't cut significantly better using the same blades, people with better technique do, and people with better accuracy can land more often.

    So just like with handguns, targeting and/or calibre. Get a blade which cleaves better, or make sure you hit a vital target, or both.
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That's one of the reasons I'm going to try setting up a tire to strike. I'm not tearing apart a heavy bag, maybe the tire hitting will build up what I'm missing on a heavy bag.
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah inertia was the word I was looking for.

    I only have second-hand knowledge of sabre/cutlass form people I know.

    I think the first half of this video shows well the inertial with short ranged striking (e.g., already in range to hit, no step necessary).

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJPtAolyzhU"]Cold Steel: (3 of 3) Basic Self Defense With Saber & Cutlass - YouTube[/ame]

    Incidentally, the second half of the video (riposte with the tip) is what I consider long range (e.g., step necessary to be in range).
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  11. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    I concede that it would be a rarity.You're correct,the rebound action (outside of witics) isn't a given in combat. Mainly I found dealing with rebound to,as I stated in my 1st post,to enhance awareness,and, to repost-
    About 40 years ago I was using not a tire but a wooden light pole (think phone pole) by the barn.Especially used one particular sinawali pattern a lot.Would start at long range and get closer and closer (usually circling the pole) 'til the arms were very close to body and not extended-so the two things ap mentioned were necessities.

    Ending up as such a close range also made it a very good practice for using body power only-you can't kid yourself when you can't deliver any ummph at all with your arms.
     
  12. BahadZubu

    BahadZubu Valued Member

    Though ideally proper body mechanics should ensure power at long and close range.
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Ideally, body mechanics should ensure the proper power at long and close range to affect your opponent.

    Speed, power, and accuracy are all important to different degrees. A sharp blade can cut to the bone with almost no effort. Speed and accuracy become the primary factors, with power not as important. The blade does the work for you.

    Unarmed is more balanced with speed, power, and accuracy being all almost equally important.

    Stick and dull blades favor speed and accuracy over power, but power is still needed more than if the blade was razor sharp.

    The key is to be able to always at least stun or unbalance your opponent on contact. If you can't do that with an accurate and quick strike, then it is the power that is lacking.

    If you are able to stun or unbalance on contact, then any use of power beyond that could be excessive to what is needed. If so, what is the value of power training? I believe the primary value of power training is to avoid self-injury. You are actually conditioning the body so as not to be injured as easily.

    If power training leads to self-injury because you hit too hard, and this can happen to anyone, then the power training isn't really practical, is it? If power training leads to hitting harder but also so that injury is resisted, that seems much more practical to me.
     
  14. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    Regarding tyres vs bags:

    Train on both if you can. Boney targets such as arms, legs, and the head/neck are what we aim for, and the rigidity of these targets allows the weapon to stay naturally mobile. Spongier targets such as the abdomen slow the weapon down and so force us to actively retrieve it between shots (whether pulling through or going back out the way we came in). The human body has soft and hard targets. Therefore we should familiarise ourselves with hitting both soft and hard targets.


    Regarding the OP's video:

    Good stuff. I look forward to seeing more of this - especially as it contrasts with the abundance of "look at me while i stand here and do this cool technique on a compliant partner" videos out there. Attribute development is talked about a lot in FMA, but is commonly neglected in practice. Which is exactly why we have folks who can do 101 beautifully choreographed techniques, combos, and drills, but can't do a convincing 3 minute round on the bag, much less a decent spar. Power, speed, and accuracy are the core fundamentals of ANY combat system. Therefore i found your video highly appropriate.


    Regarding edged and impact weapons:

    The best way to think about this is that impact = immediate stoppage, and edge = permanent stoppage (eventually). That means that although you might cut and stab your opponent to death, it is safe to assume that they will remain a threat until they are rendered unconscious - either through being knocked out (impact) or by bleeding out (edge). Of course things like decapitation or sudden organ failure can result in a "knock out" of sorts, but that requires a level of accuracy that one cannot simply take for granted. In short, if you are going to use an edged weapon, the immediate stopping power is reliant on the natural weight of the weapon, the velocity at which you can apply it, and your ability to land it accurately. Ultimately this means that your effectivity with an edged weapon (devious tactics aside) is significantly augmented by your effectivity with an impact weapon (also including your bare hands).

    With this in mind, i often get asked to deliver training on karambits, often by people who mistakenly think they're the holy grail of edged weapons. Quite simply, if you're good at fist-fighting, you've already got the prerequisite skillset needed to be effective with a karambit. Not good at fist-fighting? No point engaging straight up with a karambit, as you'll be unable to get immediate stoppage, and will quite possibly get knocked out before you can access your weapon. Moral of the story: Learn to fight with your fists, and develop your fundamentals, and everything else falls into place.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I can relate to your points but I feel they over simplify weapon interaction to get to the conclusion in the last sentence.

    I would say there are short term effects, longer term effects, and permanent effects. If stopping power is gauged on the short term effects on the target, the only reliable measure is momentum. Does the hit/weapon stop the momentum of the target? The next measure is stunning (and knockout) and unbalancing. Does the hit/weapon stun/knockout and/or unbalance the target?

    Momentum as a concept should be fairly self-explanatory. Enemy charges forward, either stop their momentum and/or get out of the way. If I impale them on the end of a pointy stick, their momentum could still take them into me, even if they are dead.

    The stun and/or unbalance is dependent on how the target reacts to the weapon hit. Some hits only momentarily stun or unbalance. However, a hit affecting the central nervous system (spine to brain) can have immediate effect of causing the target's body to shut down. A hit to a vital organ also can have immediate effect. For example, getting hit on the side of the head could cause trauma to the brain or stretch the brain stem, causing the target's body to shut down. A good hit from a heavy weapon could break bone and tendons. Be it a blade or blunt, both can shock the target.

    Longer term effects such as bleeding out can take minutes without proper medical treatment. However, the reaction from a sudden loss of blood pressure could have a more immediate effect of the target "passing out" in 4-7 seconds.

    In none of the above did I specifically call out differences between blunt and sharp weapons. A bullet is a blunt weapon that penetrates and cuts though the target tissue like a sharp weapon. The distinction between sharp and blunt damage is in not just the weapon but how the weapon is used. One could take a sharp sword and swing it like a baseball bat at a target. I would not want to be on the receiving end of that, but at the same time, that kind of use of a blade does not promote any unique advantages of a sharp weapon.

    A friend of long ago had to use a knife in self-defense. In less than than a second she had poked deep into the attacker's arm 3-5 times with the knife to escape. It would be very difficult to hit with a blunt stick the same size as the knife 3-5 times in a second and get the same effect on the tendons as with the sharp knife. However, one or two good solid hits with the end of a blunt weapon could be just as or more effective on the arm and that could be achieved in a second of time.

    I'm not able to say that impact weapon training augments edged weapon training any more than edged weapon training augments impact weapon training. I think the lesson is to do both, cross-train.

    I would say it is more learn to fight at close ranges. Don't think that the weapon will allow control of range/distance. In tactical firearm training there were times we were literally punching at the target and pulling the trigger.
     
  16. TwirlinMerlin

    TwirlinMerlin Valued Member

    It's a bad day to be the Michelin Man. I'm out!
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    lol - brilliant pic.

    Rebelwado - apologies for some oversimplification - I don't disagree with what you have posted - just tried to keep my input on the matter as concise and relevant as possible. There are certainly a number of things that are possible within fight - even more when weapons are involved. I believe it is a losing strategy to base one's approach on what is possible, as opposed to what is likely. A person will react to a strike, but will not necessarily react to being cut or stabbed. Of course, a stab or cut that has a strike attached to it will be noticed, but not necessarily as a laceration or penetrating injury. I'd even go so far as to say that immediate reactions to these types of injuries are more psychological than mechanical in nature, and even when a major artery has been severed, there is still a lag time in rendering the target mechanically immobile.

    There is a great deal of mythology in FMA when it comes to the blade. One of which is the concept of mechanical stoppage through attacking the limbs of the target. If defanging the snake was so effective, then why do so victims of knife and machete attacks continue to fight even after sustaining severe injuries their limbs? Also, where cross training is concerned, I think you'll find that skill in the use of impact weapons (which includes empty hands) definitely augments one's ability to apply edged weapons effectively to a target, if only because it allows them to create more than enough access to target areas, as well as continuing offensive pressure with the other weapons of the body. Skills developed with edged weapon training, however, does not do very much - if anything - to augment one's skill in striking (armed or unarmed). At least, that's my experience of it.
     
  18. Janno

    Janno Valued Member

    lol - brilliant pic.

    Rebelwado - apologies for some oversimplification - I don't disagree with what you have posted - just tried to keep my input on the matter as concise and relevant as possible. There are certainly a number of things that are possible within fight - even more when weapons are involved. I believe it is a losing strategy to base one's approach on what is possible, as opposed to what is likely. A person will react to a strike, but will not necessarily react to being cut or stabbed. Of course, a stab or cut that has a strike attached to it will be noticed, but not necessarily as a laceration or penetrating injury. I'd even go so far as to say that immediate reactions to these types of injuries are more psychological than mechanical in nature, and even when a major artery has been severed, there is still a lag time in rendering the target mechanically immobile.

    There is a great deal of mythology in FMA when it comes to the blade. One of which is the concept of mechanical stoppage through attacking the limbs of the target. If defanging the snake was so effective, then why do so victims of knife and machete attacks continue to fight even after sustaining severe injuries their limbs? Also, where cross training is concerned, I think you'll find that skill in the use of impact weapons (which includes empty hands) definitely augments one's ability to apply edged weapons effectively to a target, if only because it allows them to create more than enough access to target areas, as well as continuing offensive pressure with the other weapons of the body. Skills developed with edged weapon training, however, does not do very much - if anything - to augment one's skill in striking (armed or unarmed). At least, that's my experience of it.
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    No apology necessary. I had a good idea of where you were coming from.

    I'm not basing on what is likely or unlikely to happen but relating to the ease of accomplishing a task at hand. The ease of a sharp blade cutting means that almost anyone can slice unprotected flesh to the bone without the need of a lot of training or strength. A lot of attention in training is around the situation of mutual slayings.

    Eas3 of accomplishment is something across the board in martial arts. A good striker will know how to make any hit hurt. The saying is "it doesn't matter where he/she hits me, it always hurts".


    I'm not seeing much difference between blunt or edged weapon stopping power. It is all about the effect on the target. It is true that many get cut with a knife and do not immediately realize how much damage was inflicted. Is this that much different than getting hit by a hammer? The true extent of the damage might not be immediately realized. The effect of blunt force limb destructions also takes time to fully realize, sometimes minutes, some time hours after the impact for the ligaments to stop working.

    The immediate effects are those on the nervous system and structural damage, such as broken bones. Then there are other effects that shock the body that can be immediate to taking hours to take affect.

    The reason why I feel blade work augments impact weapon use as much as the other way around is that blade work comes with the deadly intent that ANYONE can use deadly force. This perspective is brought into training.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  20. Docholiday

    Docholiday Valued Member

    Nice video by the op. I'm surprised to see criticism from some about power generation. I find guys that can't generate power are critical of those that see the need to strike with power. If your FMA is truly versatile over stick, blade, and empty hand you'll see the value in proper power generation. Sure a blade can damage without power a 10 year old girl could potentially kill with a blade but more power and proper body mechanic ensure you've got enough power to stop s skilled opponent. Not to mention proper power generation ties right in to evasion and body movement to evade an attack. Some FMA just has Adalia bipunctata for body movement or at least seems to. Body movement and head movement should be part of a solid FMA program boxing is the perfect compliment to FMA which is why I train both :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2016

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