The initial position of the hand against the ground when doing aikido forward rolls

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Greetings!, Jun 20, 2015.

  1. Greetings!

    Greetings! Valued Member

    Greetings everyone!

    I am enjoying my aikido classes. Having previously studied judo in my youth, thus, I am accustomed to doing a judo forward ukemi, or break fall, fairly well. I am able to do this judo break fall fairly well on both sides, that is, when I am leading with my left arm, as well as when I am doing the break fall on the other side, that is, when I am leading with my right arm.

    In regard to my new practice of Aikido as a relatively new Aikido student, I am having a little bit of difficulty with learning the aikido forward breakfall, especially when I am leading with my right arm. I am not sure if my previous experience with doing judo forward breakfalls has helped, or possibly, instead, distracted or hindered my ability to learn the aikido forward breakfall. Anyway, …

    My current aikido teacher insists to us that when we students position ourselves to go into the aikido forward breakfall, that after bending over in order to get our arm that we are leading with closer to the ground, to first position the edge of the palm (of the arm that we are leading with) against the ground. We are to think of this arm as the “Unbendable Arm”, as we then proceed to roll over the edge of this hand and then the arm in order to go into an aikido forward roll or breakfall.

    To give you a better visual image of what I mean in regard to "placing the outer edge of the palm" against the ground, think of it that we are giving an old-fashioned "karate chop" against the ground. I am referring to that part of the hand that would be required to contact the ground as if we were karate chopping the ground. Actually, what is happening is that the outer edge of the tip of our little finger first meets the ground, and as the hand continues to roll along its outer edge, ultimately the entire hand, for just a very short instant, is in a position of a "karate chop" against the ground.

    To further learn or emulate this concept of Unbendable Arm, from time to time, our aikido instructor will have us stand next to a wall, facing the wall, and to turn our arm, rather, to roll inward our arm, in order to be able to place the outside edge of our palm against the wall (as I was referring to earlier in the position of a "karate chop") with the intention of simultaneously attempting to lift our fingers away from the wall as we at the same time attempt not to allow our arm to bend any further, but, rather, if anything, to instead attempt to ever so slightly possibly even straighten the arm. By doing these two actions simultaneously together, that is, lifting the fingers away from the wall (as the outer edge of the heel of the palm remains on the wall) while at the same time keeping the arm relatively straight, requires a strong tricep activation.

    Getting back to doing the aikido forward break fall on the ground, … I found out by experimentation that, it seems to me anyway, my aikido roll is a little bit more smooth if I allow myself to, rather than insisting myself to position the outside edge of my hand against the ground, to instead allow myself to position the back of my hand against the ground as I then proceed to roll over my hand and arm in order to do an Aikido forward break fall.

    To describe this further, placement of the edge of the hand against the ground requires the arm to be more pronated (Pronation is a physical therapy term describing the action of the arm as it rolls inward.) than instead to place the back of the hand against the ground. By not insisting that my hand and arm be required to pronate, as would otherwise be required if I were to place the edge of my palm against the ground, the aikido roll comes more naturally to me. If you don’t know what I mean by the words, pronated or pronation, then the descriptions that I have provided within the previous paragraphs are hopefully enough. I only included the description within this paragraph where I utilized the word, pronate, just as further clarification.

    Do you think that this is OK for me to do? I guess that I should rephrase that question since it’s probably “OK” for me to do anything. Rather, I should ask, is it OK for me to do this? That is, even if I decide to position the back of my hand, as opposed to positioning the edge of my hand, against the ground in the very beginning of an Aikido forward roll, that I would still be on the right path of ultimately learning the art of aikido?

    Thank you very much for any responses.

    The best to all,
    Greetings!
     
  2. Greetings!

    Greetings! Valued Member

    Hey guys,

    Please allow me to clarify further that when I refer to placing "the outer edge of our hands" against the ground, rather, when I also used the visual of we giving the ground a "karate chop", that the hand, rather, the fingers of the hand, are pointing right back at ourselves. I did not mean to indicate that our fingers would be pointing away from us, which would be in the direction ahead of us, which we are rolling toward.

    Rather, the fingers of our hand when we position our hand against the ground are initially pointing in the direction "behind us".

    Thank you very much.

    The best to all,
    Greetings!
     
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Using the hand when rolling is a training stage. Ultimately if you are having to roll for real you want either your arm or the back of your shoulder to make contact with the ground.

    Personally the idea of making contact with the back of my hand makes me shudder. It's an area of the hand with which I'd avoid any heavy contact due to its vulnerability. I'd far rather pronate and use the outer edge of my palm or, due to the amount of inward curvature, the outer edge of my forearm. I suspect that not pronating your arm and lining up the back rather than the edge of your hand could be more dangerous for the elbow if rolling on solid surfaces.
     
  4. Greetings!

    Greetings! Valued Member

    Dear jwt,

    Thank for the information. It is helpful.

    Take good care,
    Greetings!
     
  5. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    when i started out in aikido, i thought these two videos gave me lots of explanation and lots of ideas for ukemi.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OaicleoK4M"]Aikido Ukemi: Meeting the Mat - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogDN0ZghdQs"]Aikido Ukemi: Ushiro Otoshi - YouTube[/ame]

    at about 2 minutes in of the first video he directly addresses use of the hands.
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Is this what the OP is talking about?

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kPmpJWOZpM"]Basic Ukemi Progression: Forward Rolls to Standard Breakfalls - YouTube[/ame]
     
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    The key to the rolling ukemi is not posting your arm straight and rotating the shoulders correctly, to aide the roll and avoid the back of the neck, if either methods works then don't worry too much about it.
     
  8. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    No -- and this because you've set up your elbow joint in exactly its bending/collapsing configuration. You're now putting weight on your arm in exactly the configuration where it cannot take weight.

    Bad idea.

    Knife edge "karate chop" edge of hand with fingers pointing backwards -- yes. And over time, as your experience grows, gradually shrink yourself into a smaller and smaller ball.
     
  9. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    Good demo in here starting at 3:03. They put the second hand down so they can slow down the roll while demoing it... don't do that in application :D

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2eHveuG6p4"]Aikido Ukemi - YouTube[/ame]
     
  10. Greetings!

    Greetings! Valued Member

    Dear Giovanni, Rebel Wado, Sifu Ben, Fusen, and Aiki Mac (as well as JWT from previously),

    You guys rock! I greatly appreciate the information.

    Giovanni, Rebel Wado and Sifu Ben, the 4 different video links that you provided I am sure will be awesome when I get the chance later on to review them.

    However, right now, when I click on them, I am given a message on my computer, something along the lines, "An error occurred. Please try again later."

    However, that's OK because I can see that the 4 different videos are titled:

    Basic Ukemi Progression: Forward Rolls to Standard Breakfalls 5:10
    Aikido Ukemi: Meeting the Mat 9:43
    Aikido Ukemi: Ushiro Otoshi 9:55
    Aikido Ukemi 5:17


    Therefore, I can go to YouTube later on and do a search for these 4, what I am sure as being very helpful, videos.

    I have received all the information that I need regarding this topic. Thus, I am very satisfied. However, the rest of you, please feel free to continue this interesting discussion if you like. :)

    Again, thank you very much for everything.

    Take good care,
    Greetings!
     
  11. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    the main thing greetings!...practice. go to the dojo and listen to your instructors.
     

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