Discussion in 'Korean Martial Arts Articles' started by XMAM, Mar 14, 2017.

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  1. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    If I recall, GM Lim Hyun-soo has never been presented as the next 'Doju-nim' which is a very specific title for founder (or successor) of the art.

    If I recall, there were several people who supposedly were offered and/or given the title the 'Dojunim', including GM Chang Chin-il and Choi Dojunnim's son (and seems like maybe two others). The problem is that Hapkido has been pretty splintered off in a whole bunch of different groups that no one is really seen as the 'formal inheritor' of Choi Yong-sool Dojunim's system. Many people look to GM Ji Han-jae as the person who has really spread the art and stands among the very few who could be looked at the 'head of Hapkido'. (Please note I am generalizing and not trying to stir up a wave of controversy). A mere scratching of the Hapkido forest will show quite a few people of various lineages who have carved off their own group and become 10th dans (generally without the title of Doju)

    GM Lim Hyun-soo is recognized as one of the very few people to have trained directly under Choi Yong-sool Dojunim and been awarded a 9th dan from him, making him pretty much the man with the highest rank from (and most training under) Choi Yong-sool Dojunim. I don't think GM Lim has ever claimed to be 'Doju(nim)' nor represented himself as anything beyond a 9th dan holder under Choi Yong-sool.

    That he is a 9th dan under Choi Yong-sool Dojunim holds a lot of weight compared to the others who were offered the title of Dojunim, since they didn't have the rest of the corresponding rank directly from Choi Yong-sool Dojunim and the time in training under the founder. They were offered the title and theoretically a 10th dan without necessarily having the rest of the ranks directly from the founder.If anything, then GM Lim Hyun-soo would stand to make the best case for teaching 'Hapkido' the closest to what/how Choi Dojunim taught.

    My apologies for any errors... I am 'shooting from the hip' and would need to take a look at some historical sources for more specific details.
    jaggernautico likes this.
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni nefarious editor Supporter

    right, sorry i didn't mean to imply that lim was the chosen successor. but lim has been pretty much written out of the wiki page and this chinil character written in.
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    From a review I wrote of Dr. Kimm's History of Hapkido, here is a list of people offered the position of 'Doju'

  4. XMAM

    XMAM Valued Member

    First thank you Simon. for rest yes to all and for the last, Chinil Chang knew that I was writing my memoirs to set the record straight for all to know. As i told him i would therefore I remain with Chinil Chang and washed all of you grow to get to where you are today in hapkido. think of where were in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and so forth. what I wrote is simple facts that can be cross examine in the search sections of the internet WWW. I not accusing Chinil Chang of anything that isn't true as he is well aware of what I wrote. As for why the break away! thats simple I am retired and never intended to become part of the defragmented hapkido word with no unity. which is why I fragment Chinil Chang's hapkido history. so all of you can become greater then you already are as teachers and students alike. So for all who seek to join a martial art system to make the right choice and for all teacher to be the best there student could have. I apologize if any one was offended as this was not my intention. peace, love and god bless. fraternally your Xman; Xavier
  5. XMAM

    XMAM Valued Member

    from 1970 on through 1985 Chinil Chang didn't go for any further training with Choi Yong Sool in Korea. Currently Chinil Chang is teaching at a park one day a week 8:pm to 10:pm at other times from 9:pm to 11:pm.
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member

    Why do you even care though? It's really not important.
  7. XMAM

    XMAM Valued Member

    Ok very good carry on
  8. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    6th Dan is master. Promotions to 7th, 8th, and 9th aren't about training.

    According to your story, you were first demoted from 3rd degree black belt when you were 10 or 11 years old? (Demoted in 1981, 46 y/o now.)

    Also, when and how did you come to the determination that you are a martial arts master? You start off claiming to be an uncertified master and then further down in the story, stated you were leading classes as a "hidden master."
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    To be fair, it does depend on the organization. Some will use the title "master" as early as 4th dan and some later.

    If I recall correctly, in the early days of "Hapkido", 7th dan was the highest grade, which later was pushed to 9th dan (and for some today 10th dan).

    So, if GM Chang Chin-il had a '7th dan' from Choi Dojunim before he came to the US, then it is likely he held the highest possible rank at the time. Eventually as other organizations added ranks and as the system grew, it would make sense for Choi Dojunim to award his senior students with 8th and 9th dan rank (and receive pay for it).

    I think the OP gets into this... something which is pretty typical for a Korean system... I am not sure what the OP's complaint is.

    It is not unheard of for Hapkido instructors in the early days to gain rank quickly, especially if they are helping spread the art. It also would have made sense to provide a way for them to keep on earning rank even if they are no longer training full time under Choi Dojunim.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  10. XMAM

    XMAM Valued Member

    Well my history reads that my son was 7 years old. At the time in 1982 when Chinil Ching still angry at his failure to fame and fortune. kicked the little boy that was 7 years old. its that a master to hurt a child.

    To present day Chinil Chang continues remind me how well I was trained by him. We as student knew all the incidents that had occurred with Chinil Chang and all knew that the chronicle would be written including Chinil Chang and we all would agree that he would still teach as. very well therefore striping the needs for certifications and belts. Of which required 40 years of hapkido advance training no belt, certificates or names required. What mattered is that Chinil Chang is my master and only he knows the answer to your question about how Xman would be master. Peace, love and god bless.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  11. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    Your son or not, would an honorable father remain with said "master"?

    Pffttt, no. :mad:
  12. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    ...or even lower than 4th dan. At some point the title loses its meaning.

    You are right though and training does vary widely. I enjoy reading your posts by the way, they are generally mature and informative. :)
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  13. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I tend to look at the title as being "master instructor", which is someone that I see as having spent time in an art, learned the art, passed on the art to others, brought people up to at least 1st dan (black belt), and is continuing to learn and share. This can take quite a long time.

    Only 'generally'? I'll have to work on that! :)

    (Just joking - Thank you for the compliment!)
    jaggernautico likes this.
  14. XMAM

    XMAM Valued Member

    Xman honorable father remained with said "master" Chinil Chang so that honorable son x could learn the way. who is now actively engaged in hapkido.
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Angriest MAP resident.... Supporter

    So you condone the behavior as long as you gained benefit?

    I don't think that is in any way a measure of honor.....
    jaggernautico likes this.
  16. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    Learn what "way"? I don't know what that means.

    Communication is mostly body language and tone, but we don't have that on a forum, so you have to type very very clearly.
  17. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    For sake of brief review,let us assume everything in the article is fact.

    I think the main message we can take from the individual's article is that for decades the individual was with a teacher, a terrible person who was, among other things-dishonest,power/status hungry,physically (and photographically) abusive to students, including non-adult students.

    Yet the individual stays with this teacher for those decades.Thereby if not in some instances being an accomplice,at least seeming to condone or having no real concern at the time for such behavior.I certainly do not think the XMAM spent decades with a guy just so he could take notes and after many years let the world know what a scum his teacher was.

    We all make choices on who to study with,if an individual wants to study garrote techniques with a hit man that is the individual's choice. It would seem that after a certain number of years the teacher would have no more to teach.Unless he's been holding back,and then one would question WHY the individual would continue to stay with a teacher who has no more to teach the individual and who the individual feels is a scum.Barring that,one must wonder why the individual would stay with such a terrible person who no longer has anything to teach one.Oh,that's right.To take notes for a future expose'.

    So- one cannot but wonder after spending decades with this teacher

    why come out with all this stuff now,after all this time?

    What's the REAL reason you're posting here,XMAM? Must be personal.

    If you're going to slag someone you were with during the many years when he was supposedly doing all these horrible things one must ask why the sudden concern? Did you get religion or something?

    Otherwise it is difficult to think it's from a sense of altruism.

    A "couple" little things-

    "The WAY"?From,according to you,a despicable person?Wasn't there anyone else in the world-or at least NY- you could have taken your son to?
    Take the Jutsu,leave the Do.

    B-b-b-b-but wait! You also stayed as "'honorable father" to-see above.Rather contradictory.

    Since 1982??? Thank heavens there are people like you in the world,ready to spend years and years with someone just so they can keep a record of how despicable their teacher is and to reveal same to the world.Umpteen years after the fact.

    So for the weal of the world you continued to stay under an abusive teacher.Very commendable.Or very lacking in gray matter.

    Really? When was this,1857? Besides, that's not a training injury,it's assault.Period.

    Seeing as how in our litigatenous society even the 1970s could be hazardous for MA instructors I must observe that it appears you know very,very little about such matters.

    Consequently your credibility at this point seems very,very little also.
  18. aikiMac

    aikiMac boxing is fun Moderator Supporter

    ^^ Exactly my thought, but I was going to wait to hear what "the way" is before I hit him with all that.

    "Honorable" father? No, not as I define the word. Perhaps the "-do" in my martial arts means something different, also.
  19. XMAM

    XMAM Valued Member

    you condone your behavior as long as you gained readers benefit?
  20. XMAM

    XMAM Valued Member

    Yes to all as in google search there are thousands up on thousands of Xman. enjoys your writings. Xman out?
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