Specific question about katas

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Corwin Icewolf, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter


    I take serious issue with this mentality, especially for beginners. If someone gets that frustrated, maybe teaching shouldn't be their line of work.

    An instructor should be answering questions and if they just cop an attitude instead........well I would be looking for a different school. Not saying everyone should, but I certainly don't want to learn in that atmosphere.

    Questions mean the student is trying to understand in more depth - not just mimicking without thought. That should be encouraged by an instructor.

    Now, at a more advanced level, I have had my instructor occasionally say to me that I need to start trying to figure something out on my own. But even then, if I try and get stuck, she will then answer.

    As for the original question, I have nothing to add to some really great answer on here by Hannibal, Fish of Doom, SWC Sifu Ben and others.

    Corwin, have you done kata but not sparred yet?
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Even if you shadow boxed the exact same routine with no different steps or techniques it would still not be kata. When you shadow box you are protecting your head, your hands are up, chin down, and light on a lead leg (for thai boxing for instance). Even then, another reason kata and shadow boxing are not alike is rythm. In thai boxing you have to bounce on your lead leg. Many points in a kata people are standing still or in a pose. In shadow boxing it never happens because you are always moving to a rythm/tempo.
     
  3. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Here is an example.

    Solo form:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9whv9vAbVR4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9whv9vAbVR4[/ame]

    2 men form:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-I8qEiJp_o"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-I8qEiJp_o[/ame]
     
  4. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Shadow boxing and kata are not the same.

    I completely agree with chadderz.

    One thing that shadow boxing works - aside from the actual bio mechanics and physical motions of how you actually fight - is footwork/mobility. The aim of shadow boxing is to be loose and mobile as you drill specific mechanics into your body and develop your own expression of your art it is also a conditioning tool. Solo Kata is a physical catalogue of motions that resemble actual fighing application in the broadest and most charitable sense possible. Although it too can condition and impart physical principles they are different things.
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Not just that, but you are also exercising your mind by thinking on your feet.

    Here's a question: if you memorised a sequence of your shadow boxing and repeated it, would you be practicing kata?
     
  6. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Yes a memorised sequence of shadow boxing is a kata.
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    And then after you're dead people will say "oh no, that's not kicking and punching, look at all these awesome grappling applications, that guy was a genius!" :D
     
  8. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'll pick up a couple of points here (bolded).
    In kata (as interpreted by more more pragmatic people like JWT and Iain Abernethy , rather than the traditional Kick/Punch/Block approach) you are still protecting your head. Just in a different way to "leave your hand up by your chin" you see in boxing and Thai shadow boxing. There is more than one way to protect your chin. For example if I over-hook and arm and wrap it that arm will find it much harder to hit me in the face. If I grab an arm and pull it down to disrupt balance and posture the person will find it hard to punch. The head/chin is protected by compromising the other person's ability to hit it rather than putting a passive "barrier" in the way.
    Modern kata interpretation has more in common with clinch sparring than western boxing or Thai out fighting IMHO. Imagine what sorts of shapes you'd make if you solo drilled the kind of moves your hands make when clinched, controlling wrists, grabbing necks, whizzering, underhooking, arm dragging, lifting chins, etc
    This is also why the hands aren't "up" in the conventional "keep your hands up" style of sparring/shadow boxing. The hands are too busy grabbing, unbalancing, ripping, gripping and controlling (which requires a variety of hand positions) to be just kept "up".

    I've watched this great video on Lomachenko (fast becoming one of my favourite boxers) many times.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAU4nPC2dGw"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAU4nPC2dGw[/ame]

    In particular there's a section on destroying a guard where he rips down one side of his opponents "ear muff" double guard with his opposite hand and then hooks into the space he's created (what Abernethy calls setting datums and clearing obstructions). As he does that his hand goes out, hooks the glove and ends up down...lookie look....by his own waist (not up!). It's this kind of manipulation that are represented in kata.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    This is a fair point and why kata should not be interpreted as representing a "real" fight in the same way shadow boxing can be IMHO.
    Shadow boxing and kata aren't the same but that doesn't mean kata can't be useful in a different way (I do both and often incorporate kata like movements in my shadow boxing/fighting because I can visual what I'm doing with them in a fighting context).
     
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That Lomachenko video was great. I love technical and thoughtful boxing like that.

    Here's another question:

    Is Lomachenko missing out by not training kata? If kata has it's place outside of drills, sparring and shadow boxing, would Lomachenko be a better boxer if he incorporated kata in his training?

    What is the void that is left when you remove kata?
     
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Absolutely not. Kata is just one method of transmitting information but it ain't the only way. Many arts do without kata of course and generally the people that result from those arts are badasses.
    I'd say that unless you are dissecting the kata, drilling the principles, sparring and actually training combatively to a proportion of something like 10% solo kata/90% the rest then doing kata is actually counter-productive.
    Doing kata without those additional processes is next to useless IMHO.
     
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    There's some gold-dust analysis out there. Lee Wylie, Connor Ruebusch, the blessed Jack Slack, Wilson Kayden, Lawrence Kenshin, etc. All worth a look.
    Every night I put a toddler to bed and sit with him as I watch breakdown videos. :)
     
  13. pgsmith

    pgsmith Valued dismemberer

    That's OK, you're allowed to take issue with whatever you wish since you don't actually practice a traditional Japanese art. :)
    In the classical Japanese arts that I study, mimicking without thought until a certain level of proficiency is attained is the required way of learning. They have been taught this way for several hundred years. Those that are instructors in the koryu arts are not teachers per se, and none of them do this for a living. They are rather curators who's main concern is that the ryu gets passed on correctly as it has been in the past. They tend to be more interested in finding the proper people who will work diligently to learn the art correctly rather than worrying about whether any individual student is interested in sticking around.
     
  14. matveimediaarts

    matveimediaarts Underappreciated genius

    Didn't read the whole thread, but this is full of win^^ :hat: Kata has a fairly useful purpose. It's part of a toolbox. The other tools are things like bunkai, kumite, bag and pad work, etc. I personally don't care too much for open hand kata, but I find weapons kata helpful.
     
  15. huoxingyang

    huoxingyang Valued Member

    In my limited experience this applies just the same to how many Chinese martial arts were classically taught. Not many (in the West) follow this approach today, but those same teachers who have "modernised" their approach still like to talk about "the old days".

    That said, I don't think it was the case (in Chinese martial arts) that students should mimick "without thought". Repetitive practice of forms/kata is exactly an opportunity for students to think and dwell on what that choreography might be teaching them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Form is for teaching and learning only. It's not for training. It depends on which technique that you want to train when you work on your form.

    For example, When you punch your right fist out and pull your left fist back at your left waist, if your left hand is to

    - pull your opponent's arm toward you, your left hand should move back to your left waist as a fist as the original form was designed (most of the MA forms were designed this way).
    - grab your opponent's leg under his knee, your left hand should be in front of your knee with palm facing up.
    - parry down your opponent's punch, your left hand should be in front of your chest with palm facing down.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016

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