Specific question about katas

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Corwin Icewolf, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. Corwin Icewolf

    Corwin Icewolf New Member

    So I know katas get argued about and I'm hoping (probably in vain) to avoid the katas are useless no they aren't fighting. I searched back through the forum but didn't find the answer to my question underneath all that.

    Here it is: katas mainly train muscle memory, from what I can tell. As a gamer I know full well muscle memory is a pretty big double edged sword. It's really awesome about 75 percent of the time. The other 25 it's following it's coded rotes even when it's a bad idea.

    My concern is that in a fight this would lead to fighters doing stupid things like blocking punches that aren't coming or kicking at opponents when they were prepared for a kick 2 seconds ago, due to the being the next move in the kata that their muscle memory was churning out.


    On another note, wouldn't falling into kata during fights make you a repetitive and therefore predictable fighter?


    What I'm looking for isn't "lol yer ryte bro lol kottas are bad bro lol" please instead respond specifically to the points I brought up, and tell me specifically why I'm either absolutely right, sort of right sort of wrong, or if I'm a stupid idiot for even worrying about it.

    Oh and tangentially, why is the stance in a kata completely different from a fight stance? No one's ever explained that...
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Think of kata as an encyclopaedia of techniques rather than a prearranged fight
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Welcome to MAP.

    While I don't practice Kata I have been at self defence training days and been on the receiving end of moves directly lifted from Kata.

    We have some very good karateka here, so I'm sure you'll get some good information soon enough.
     
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Stances are transitional movements (some of them anyway, like horse stance).

    You can't "fall into kata" in the middle of a fight unless you're doing a two man drills and training it specifically under pressure. Which is what a fighter would be doing anyway.
     
  5. Corwin Icewolf

    Corwin Icewolf New Member

    Wait, what? :confused: so muscle memory stops functioning in a real fight?

    I don't get how the patterns of a repeatedly practiced kata wouldn't appear, could you expand on that please?

    I've seen the claim a hundred times that katas train muscle memory. If this is not the case, then that would negate my worries, but I don't see how a rote action couldn't train muscle memory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  6. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well so-so. Like, you can throw perfect jabs at air all day, but couldn't hit a person irl because you've never actually done it. You practice it under pressure and it will work under pressure.
     
  7. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Yep, train it under pressure and it'll be there under pressure.

    Bruce Lee said I don't hit it hits all by itself.

    Train it realistically, drill it under pressure, don't get bound us in it, re-visit it regularly to keep it sharp and it'll be there when you want it.

    Yes, even kata.
     
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Basically. If you trained in wushu bought you fought in an open ended competitive environment you'd be a high flying bad ass. Because competition.
     
  9. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Kata's can be a way that your mind learns how to control your body. You need to have good coordination, to control your body with your mind and kata's are one way of developing coordination.
     
  10. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    Er, that's not how kata work. You're ascribing to forms practice the objective of two person drills, which one should also be doing. Forms are biomechanics training either abstracted for solo practice from different scenarios (which you then train in a controlled environment with someone else, or even start them BEFORE you do the form), or plain made up for X or Y purpose other than to provide scenarios (and sometimes, unfortunately, abstracted to the point where they make little discernible sense to most, including many of those who teach them).

    After you've properly drilled the body mechanics, which requires a two-way feedback between forms and drills (ie how you do stuff with your body vs how you do that stuff to someone else's body), so that you can explore via what works in drilling how you actually need to move during forms and basics (a more complicated thing than just the displacement of your body, also including posture, static rotation, breathing, and so on), use the forms and basics to develop it properly, re-drill them until you get it right, repeat, THEN you will have a good idea of how to play with someone else in a non-controlled situation; that is, sparring, non-compliant drilling, scenario training, etc, which you should have ALSO been doing right from the start, in a progressive manner, to develop the psychological aspect of doing stuff to someone who wants to do stuff to you in turn (particularly when they're succeeding and you're not).

    As for stances, I'll just plug these babies I wrote ages back and would probably cringe while reading right now, but which I don't believe I'll disown just yet :p :

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89537

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123756
     
  11. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Think of kata as shadow boxing. It's a good drill. Nothing more really.
     
  12. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    What's the best way to train MA?

    IMO, the best way to train MA is to learn how to:

    1. apply a technique.
    2. counter that technique.
    3. counter those counters of that technique.
    4. ...

    If you use this approach, you will need to "modify" your form/kata training every time you do it. The form/kata only "record" one set of possibilities. There are many other possibilities that you will need to figure out and add it into your training.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  13. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    It's a good drill, but don't think of it like shadow boxing. Please.
     
  14. Corwin Icewolf

    Corwin Icewolf New Member

    @youknowwho: So, change parts of the kata from time to time? That makes sense and would help. Actually why don't dojos do that?

    @fish of doom so what most dojos call kata is actually form and real kata are two person drills? Or were you saying I've been misled about katas training muscle memory and that that's what the drills are for?
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  15. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Kata are for solo reinforcement of muscle memory tuned by 2 person drills.
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    You use the stance in the

    - form/kata to "develop" something.
    - fighting to "apply" something.

    Train big and use small is usually the guideline.
     
  17. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I thought that different steps in the same kata and/or steps in a different kata, are different responses. :confused:
     
  18. raaeoh

    raaeoh never tell me the odds

    Shadow boxing you imagine an opponent. Kata you imagine an opponent.

    Both are used in solo training. Both have techniques you use in a fight. Both have been used to teach a new technique.
     
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    That should be considered as "homework" IMO.

    For example, in your form/kata, you have a left side kick followed by a right palm strike to your opponent's neck. The form/kata assumes that your opponent's downward arm block may spin your body to your left. What if your opponent's downward arm block spins your body to your right? After your left side kick, you will have to follow by a right spin back fist instead. The 2nd combo may exist in another one of your form/kata or it may not. It should be your own responsibility to figure that out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  20. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    You ever watch soccer players drill? There's a few drills you can practice, some of them involve passing a ball between different members, some of them involve just kind of bouncing the ball by yourself. No one worries that a soccer player is going to start playing hackey sack by himself in the middle of a game, so you shouldn't really worry that practicing kata will make you bust into a dance routine in the middle of a fight. It's more likeā€¦ drilling just helps you recognize the opportunity in front of you. "This arm bar? FOR ME?! You shouldn't have!!!! MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ONE AND ALL"
     

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