So I was attacked...

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by TheLastDancer, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Unless you consider the community that makes up the world practice of Aikido to reflect in some way on Aikido itself. Personally, I think the community and practices common therein are Aikido far more than any specific techniques are.
    If that's true, then you can totally blame Aikido. This story is the rule, not the exception.

    I mean really, if a given community consistently produces people who aren't prepared to apply what they practice to such a degree that they don't even realize it, I think that can be laid at the feet of that community. Especially when there are communities which consistently produce the opposite.

    If he said it about boxing, most everyone would assume (and usually accurately) that he never actually learned to box much at all. Since he's saying it about aikido, unfortunately it sounds about right.
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni nefarious editor Supporter

    i don't disagree with you kurtka were we talking about a "fighting" art. but the founder of the art himself wrote a book about it called "the art of peace".

    plenty of boxers have gotten mugged, even good boxers. muggers work on the element of surprise and are more willing to escalate violence than your standard non-criminal. we should be thankful that the op made it and can post about it.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2017
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think the lack of information in the OP is leading to a fair bit of confirmation bias.

    First off, "I'm ok now albeit with a bad black eye" doesn't fit with "getting beaten up pretty badly", and "I tried to do the pins but the guy broke free and it turned into a brawl" is not enough information to pass judgement - sounds like something that could happen to most martial artists, given the right opponent.

    Now, I'm not about to defend the training methods of... well, all Aikido I've seen, but a bit of objectivity wouldn't go amiss.

    If the OP read:

    Would the responses be more in line with aikiMac's: "if all you have is a black eye, I think you did very well"?

    As Giovanni says, good boxers get mugged too.
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Also be thankful it's only been 6 years of training rather than someone with 10/20/30 years of training that gets paneled!
    There are plenty of high level people (in rank if not skill) getting pummeled by a big or aggressive dude full of intent. And some of them look stupid doing it (Cheung trying to fight Boztepe for example).
    There's still plenty of scope to do more training, put your aikido into perspective, add to it and round out your skills.
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    To be honest, I'm a bit surprised an aikidoka of 6 years would get any pins on in the first place, given its reputation.

    On face value, I'd say that gives a good base to work from, as long as holding/transitioning those pins is trained with proper resistance.
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Although...there's a fair chance this story you say..."fishy"?
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Of course, this is the internet.

    Still though, might as well discuss it on face value. I mean, it's plausible, so it doesn't really matter if it happened or not to get some discussion out of it.
  8. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    There's more evidence of boxing working than Aikido though.
    Or there's more evidence of smashing people in the face once or over and over working, and being able to do it in the middle of a chaotic fight and using elements of instinct like moving your head out the way or putting some kind of cover up, which, when refined, is the kind of things boxers do well.

    Less so of ,mid chaotic fight, doing something that's specifically Aikido. Seen some kind of stuff done pre emptive ,before the guys had chance to get going or thrown and that could be put in the bracket of hand fighting, clinch.
    You don't see any posy fancy stuff unless it's low intense.
    Who cares about low intensity.

    Most serious fights or situations end up in chaos and a mess anyway.That's should be the starting point. Gaining skills that can be used within that chaos. Being able to dominate in that chaos.
    If things dont work within that context it's a gamble. They could work at lower intensitys but the intensity of a situation will not be known until it's happening. Too late then.
    I would guesse the OP tried to fit Aikido into the situation, rather than let the situation dictate what needs doing. Which ever opportunity presents itself, strike, grapple, clinch, escape , use of environment etc...that's what needs doing. Being free to be able to ad lib with as many fundamental skills gained through training, as possible ....rather than getting stuck because a pre concieved idea isn't working.
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    If you're training for non-sport, you should care about low intensity.

    Violence is a spectrum, and more often than not it isn't do-or-die. Low force responses should be part of your repertoire, if you are to carry out justified actions in self defence.

    If you disagree with that, you've just signed up to the "carried by six or judged by twelve" lot.
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom Goes well with everything Moderator Supporter

    Maybe the OP has healed up since a little before posting? Thats how I read it.

    I initially did start writing about how Pro-MMA fighters like Lee Murray and Shogun Rua got attacked, whilst in their prime I might add. But got into a bit of a tangent.
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I literally cannot fathom that course of action. Seems like madness. If ever there are people that can bridge the street/sport divide it'd be those two.
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I was also having a little private joke with myself using a meme from a podcast I listen to. :)
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom Goes well with everything Moderator Supporter

    A bit from Lee Murray's interview

    And here's a bit with Shogun Rua's unfortunate incident
    Essentially, what I'm getting at. Altercations can happen to anybody.

    Fair enough though, Shogun's situation is based in Brazil and dependant on the area, it's not the safest of places. Friend of mine is a Police Officer there (Sao Paolo), he tells me things...:Alien:
    But they knew who he was and they were armed and ready.
  14. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    A sobering reality check...
  15. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I this we all know altercations can happen to anyone, and they can turn out bad, i think the point is people tend to believe this story because we have yet to hear a substantiated story of aikido being used successfully in a street fight, it's not confirmation bias it's simple logic, take your Murray example, he lost that fight and badly but we can't say look an mma guy lost a street fight mma doesn't work because there are scores of Murray stories of him cleaning house in street fights in one on one and multiple on one fights, I'll post some direct from him and from others there. I'd go so far as to say their are more stories of just Murray using mma and winning than there are of all the successful validated aikido fights out there in total. It's not confirmation bias it's simply the reality that aikido can't be shown to work by anyone supporting it in an actual unscripted fight,
  16. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Murray stories much edited lol
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2017
  17. Simon

    Simon The Bulldog Admin

    I'd just like to say that anyone of us could have been attacked and had the same outcome.

    No one style or art would necessarily have changed the outcome and it's all too easy to pick holes in your art.

    Fighting or really having to defend yourself outside is often disgusting and horrible and the shock can be quite intense.

    Equally the questions you ask yourself afterwards can really make you doubt your training, your ability to look after yourself and even your loved ones.

    I suggest you take a different view of things and be thankful you got away with only a few injuries.

    Wrong place at the wrong time.

    If you love aikido then continue with it. You'll rain with a different view and that's a positive.

    You can always take a few seminars in other styles if you feel it's necessary.

    My own opinion, and tis isn't a dig at anyone here, is that too many people will take great pride in telling you your art suck, yet would not have faired any better than you given the same circumstances.
  18. BohemianRapsody

    BohemianRapsody Valued Member

    I particularly agree with that last part of your statement Simon. And I agree somewhat with the argument that if you love aikido you can go back to it with a different mindset... I'm not 100% sure it will help though.

    One outlook I've really come to value in BJJ (not my main art but something I've started to spend more time training lately) is the way of looking at techniques as "high percentage" or "low percentage." The BJJ players I know won't dismiss something like standing wrist locks outright, they can work, but are extremely hard to pull off against a resisting opponent, so they are considered low percentage techniques. Where single or double leg takedowns are often successful against resisting opponents- provided those opponents don't have much better wrestling than you, so are considered high percentage.

    The point of my very long preamble is, aikido seems mostly comprised of low percentage techniques. Does this mean it can't work in a violent confrontation? No. But the likelihood of success is much lower than if the same person were to put their time into an art that's primary techniques actively demonstrated success against resisting opponents on a daily basis.

    All that being said, you're probably just as safe practicing whatever art you want and carrying a can of mace or taser.
  19. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I agree with Simon

    I'm not so sure about the low vs high percentage technique point 'though

    Of course there are stupid techniques and ways of doing a technique that make it easily countered

    I tend to look at it like this:
    - All techniques require training, careful study etc to reduce the probability of counters and learn when & how to apply them (ie making them high percentage)
    - There are a number of techniques that appear in multiple styles with different histories etc
    - Likely these are valid if applied correctly, at the right time etc
    - Often a particular style will dismiss a subset of these because they don't appear in their curriculum
    - Because they are not trained in said style at best the practitioners' skill with those techniques is crude, and therefore they are easily countered, reinforcing the perception that they are low percentage

    When I look at Aikido I see a training methodology that, as a result of overly compliant uke's, tends to focus on more advanced concepts like flow and by doing so has removed elements of the techniques (eg atemi) that are essential to their practical application

    This is a little different from saying it's mostly comprised of low percentage techniques
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth

    An arts training methodology IS the art. If the training methodology doesnt allow you to safely fail and so learn from your failure, its setting you up for failure later on, when its not so safe to do that.

    That said, I would be interested in the OP's full description of what happened, as it sounds like he had some early success, but didnt know how to capitalize on it.

    i.e. he got the fight to a pinning position, couldn't keep the pinning position, and also may not of been aware of the appropriateness of said pinning position.

    Interestingly while a lot of TMA's favour pinning face down, it actually makes it easier for a trained individual to stand up out of the pin.

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