SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan

Oh and for those people who believe that they have seen all of the Hatsumi/Takamatsu bo jutsu.

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=ASC&topic_id=414&forum=7&type

Gary Arthur

 

Garth, don't you even know that a rokushaku bo is a long staff and a hanbo is a short staff? We were talking about the Kuji no ho, which is for the rokushakubo and not the hanbo.

And people reading what you say only have to know that the Kuji no ho is a series of moves to teach something. You have even tried to say that they were created back in the 14th century. But they were created by a guy in the 20th century.

I don't think anyone is being fooled by what you write.

If anyone believes Garth, please chime in.

 

If one reads the thread on Kutaki Sean Askew says this

Togakure Ryu?

Tanemura writes in Bufu on the history of Kukishin Ryu (not direct translation)

Kurando who was 16 years of age at the time and a gyoja from Kishu in the south of Nara. He was well known for his skill in the arts of Ninjutsu possibly from the Togakure Ryu and other Bujutsu.... Kurando used a technique called "Gyaku Kuji" a secret method of using the rokushaku bo and struck the samura down.

Gyaku kuji?

Probably not the same as the Kuji no bo, but interesting anyway.

Gary Arthur

 

Grimjack posted

Yes but the whole point is that it was suggested that Mr Hatsumi did not know Shobukyoku gata. And as i posted, well if he knows it for the hanbo he probably knows the bo jutsu too.

OH and actually the Kuji no ho is also for the Jo.

Oh its for teaching something. I'm impressed by your depth of knowledge.

Thats what it says according to the Kiba Koshira book.

And your evidence is?

I think you are.

Gary Arthur

 

Garth,
Soke has never seemed to claimed to have known the kuji no ho. Takamatsu sensei never seems to have claimed to have known the Kuji no ho. Even Steve Hayes has never publically made the claim that he learned the Kuji no ho in the Bujinkan. I can understand why he would be unwilling to let people know where he really learned it.

You don't know the subject matter and have tried to say that the Kuji no ho was created in the 14th century. Not if you carefully read the source you site.

But if you want to try to promote the idea that Steve learned the Kuji no ho in the Bujinkan, rather than from a videotape, you had better ask him first, eh?

Unless of course, you want him to have some sort of ability to deny what you say. Because if he were to ever give a name for who taught him, then we could ask that person. And when that person denied it because Steve probably learned it from a video, it would cause a whole lot more trouble for you.

But if you want to promote the idea that Steve learned the Kuji no ho in the Bujinkan, then it is your responsibility to provide proof rather than speculation. That is your take on things when people say things that you don't like. Now it is your turn to prove all you wild speculation and not us to disprove it.

 

Grimjack posted

Grasping at straws again. There was a reason I put.

and I cite what?

Already have, and it was not learnt from the Genbukan stuff.

Its clear to me that you have not seen the Genbukan DVD and compared it with the SKH DVD. But then thowing out allegations without seeing the evidence is pretty much your style.

You could do, but I doubt it. You will ask me to prove it.

Its easy Grimjack contact Mr Hayes and ask him yourself.

No. its you responsibity to prove that he didn't. Your the one calling him the liar. Its not up to the suspect to prove his innocence its for the accuser to prove the suspect guilty.

This is a basic principle in law, regardless of what country you live in.

I have speculated nothing. I know where Mr Hayes learnt it and it was from a member of the Bujinkan NOT from Tanemura or his tapes. I guess the place to start is to ask Dr Hatsumi whether he knows the Kuji No Bo.

You see the logic is this. If I have to continuously prove where Mr Hayes learnt the techniques he taught, we could go on forever. i.e

Where did Mr Hayes learn Mushadori?
Where did Mr Hayes learn Ganseki Nage.
Where did Mr Hayes learn Kihon Happo

And when I can't give times and teachers you can then say "Aha so he must have learnt it from DVD"

Its a little like me saying to you "On what day did you learn X technique" and when you can't tell me, I say. I think your learning it from a book.

As I said you are making the allegations that Mr Hayes learnt the Kuji No Bo from a DVD. I have provided some evidence that maybe its known outside the Genbukan and by Hatsumi.

So prove to me that Hatsumi does not know it with more evidence than

and I will put again

People have been wrong before about what Dr Hastumi does or does not know.

Gary Arthur

 

So, who did he learn it from? Why won't you give the name if you know it? How can I be calling Steve a liar when he won't make a public statement about the matter? If he never gives the name of who he learned it from, how can me saying that it looks like he learned it from a video be said to be calling him a liar? How do we know you actually asked him? Why are you trying to say you know who he learned it from but won't give a name, only speculation?

Where is your proof?

 

Garth said:-

You can *perhaps* also add Sean Askew to that list.

Posting as "SeanAskew" on Kutaki no Mura (here), Sean said:-

Note - I know Sean uses the term "Sabaki Gata" here but it is clear from the context of the thread that he is referring to the Bojutsu found in Kiba Koshiro's book.

Who is Saifuku Shihan? A little extra digging found that information.

Posting as "Seiryu" on Kutaki no Mura (here), Sean said:-

Note - this last quote is intended purely to show who Saifuku Shihan is and not to make or support any other claims (although it may do so anyway).

Now in all fairness, it seems that Sean has experienced Kuji no Ho through a Kukishin source from outside the Bujinkan although that does not preclude the possibility that it is still tucked away in the Bujinkan attic somewhere - especially given Sean's assertion that the Bujinkan "has lost nothing in terms of its knowledge of the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu".

Perhaps a good way to continue this would be to contact Sean Askew and ask him about his experiences?

Grimjack said:-

Can someone remind me why we're arguing then?

 

Grimjack posted

Because we would get into this argument of "Prove it" and of course I can't, no more than any of us can prove our teacher showed us something in private.

And when I can't prove it you go back to calling Mr Hayes a liar.

So your not calling him a liar. Good. Then its enough to say that the techniques on the Bojutsu DVD did not come from Tanemura.

Unless you can prove otherwise.

You don't. You have to take my word for it. As we take Hatsumi's, Tanemura, Takamatsu's words for things. Not everything can be proven, including where Mr Hayes learnt the Bojutsu.

Because we go around in circles yet again with the "Prove it" argument. And as i said I can't. And to be honest i'm not particularly interested if you believe me.

Wheres yours?

Gary Arthur

 

I can't see how this is that confusing...

Regardless as whether the techniques contained with the teachings for Toshindo Bojutsu gradings are made up its the usage of the Ryu-ha name without permission and if as you are trying badly to point out that is another source then why not simply correct the grading certs....

You mentioned that Steve could be sued for its useage, and the Toshindo Bojutsu grading certificates going on ebay i could be sued for..so how can you argue that its wrong?

ITs really simple, not the contents its the name...

 

In '93 I think it was, that being "the big bojutsu training year" in the Bujinkan, Mark O'Brien was over here teaching a rokushakubo seminar. He taught several kata which he said were currently being worked on in Japan, which he said were not the "usual" Kukishin kata most people learn. I don't remember them well and my notes are unintelligible to me now, but some of them did have "Kangi" as part of their names. He didn't have detailed historical information on their origin.

But whatever: I agree that the significant issue is whether SKH has the right to use the Kukishin/Kukishinden name the way he has done. If you want to look at it from the "might makes right" perspective, i.e., "I can do this because it's going to be too much bother and expense to sue me over it", then obviously he does. Looking at it from a cultural/moral perspective, on the other hand, one might reach a different conclusion.

 

I agree with Dale.

Despite Garth's attempts to call into question EVERYONE's training, the difference between these various individuals (Takamatsu, Hatsumi, etc.) and Hayes is that the former held either Menkyo Kaiden or Soke-ship of the schools they are ranking in.

Hayes holds *NO RANK* that provides him with the *RIGHT* (according to anyone who does Japanese budo that I have ever spoken with) to provide ranking certificates using the Kukishin Ryu or Kukishinden Ryu names.

None of Garth's handwaving or attempts to distract from this issue will make it go away. Hayes is a classic "bad budo" instructor who has gotten caught and either (1) doesn't have balls enough to bow out when it is appropriate, or (2) doesn't have knowledge enough of the Japanese culture or Japanese Budo to know that he's in the wrong.

Either one is "bad" for Mr. Hayes and his supporters.

-ben

 

are those like the chudan kangi, ihen kangi etc?

 

Yep, them's the ones.

 

Regarding the question of where Hayes got the Shobukyoko stuff, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that it was from within the Bujinkan. George Kohler has in the past stated that the material is can be found within the teachings of an Ueno-den group and as Hatsumi Sensei is a former Ueno student, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have access to material which other Ueno students had.

This then raises the question of would Hatsumi Sensei pass on non-Takamatsu stuff to his students. I recall Manaka Sensei saying on ebudo that he and other students had been taught other stuff by Hatsumi Sensei including Asayma Ichiden Ryu and other non-Kukishinden Happo Biken forms of Kukishin Bojutsu.

So it appears to me at least, that this material could be present in the Bujinkan even though it is not widely known.

Of course, if it is known in the Bujinkan the question of why Tanemura would say it isn't is raised, but that a whole different hot potato.

 

does that mean i'm the lucky one?

the notes i have are for -

Shoden no kata

Chudan kangi
Gedan Kangi
Ihen kangi
Jodan gogi
Ichimonji gogi
Hira ichimonji
Ichimonji Hakugi
Seigan Hakugi
Tenchijin Hakugi

Quite happy to scan and email them to you if you want them again.

 

Would Bokuden Ryu fall under that question? See the "Shinken Shiraha Dome" DVD for further details.

 

No, until Steve decides to tell us where he learned the bojutsu from and then we go ask that teacher to confirm it, then the most likely explanation is that he learned it from a video. Steve never said in public he did not learn it from a video. If he had learned it from a teacher, that teacher would back his story. That is how he would prove it.

Sean Askew may have learned the Kuji no ho. But it is common knowledge that he spent time in Japan training with other Kukishin groups.

 

Grimjack said:-

Yes of course. That's why I posted this point.

 

I think that if you look at what George Kohler said it would be that Tanemura sensei learned the Kuji no ho from Sato Kimbei and has been working with the Ueno-den group in the last couple of decades. So if they know it, you can credit Tanemura sensei with teaching it to them. Hatsumi sensei has not trained with Ueno Takashi for over 50 years.

So it looks like the Ueno-den group might have it, but not from Ueno.

And Andy, I took what Sean Askew to say is that after looking over the Kuji no ho, their absence is no big loss to the Bujinkan. I happen to have the book by Kiba Koshiro now and the Kuji no ho just seem to be a simpler way of laying out the basics than what we are used to in the Bujinkan. They may be of help to the begginer, but I know how to do everything in them already.