Roadtoad's theory on Kote gaeshi

As this turned up in another thread I thought it could be discussed here rather than derail the other thread.

If a mod would be so kind as to merge the relevant posts into this thread that'd be cool.

 

Thanks Dean. I think the discussion has gone back to atemi in the other thread.

Here is something for this thread.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1231681

 

Thought I'd put my quote from the other thread in.

 

From a few that have told me they used kote gaeshi in real situations, it ended up breaking the attacker's wrist. Not in all cases did the attacker fall to the ground.

I'm really not sure if it is a reliable take down. Whether it works or not, the attacker could still have their other hand to attack with and so part of the technique is to be aware of the attacker's other hand/weapons.

 

In theory if your position is right and uke is locked up via the spine then it's rather hard to use the other hand. That's on the mat though of course

I've in the past been taught waza that you might think of as Kote gaeshi as a limb destruction and as a take down/throw. It depended on if the "locks in the chain" (wrist - elbow - shoulder etc) were used to damage a joint i.e create a point where something was going to go or unbalance via the skeletal structure.

Each way used different footwork and angles.

 

When I was new in aikido, there were japanese that were jealous of americans in aikido. Many still believed that it was only for aristocrats, like Tomiki.
Coming home after practice to my little village, this guy was waiting for me. He made about 30 tsuki thrusts at me with a knife. All I could do was block, I couldn't complete the throw. I was too new. Now, I would use a continuing around, unfocused blow to his upper neck or head with the opposite hand of the blocking hand.
As it was, we seperated with no one winning.

 

What was the name of the village and where is it?



Oh in case you didn't realise I think you are being less than truthful.

Now last chance.

Please either engage in some form of technical discussion or don't post.

Yes all very funny trolling a forum just enough to stop you from being banned but enough is enough. Everything that you type comes across as being questionable, either due to the content or the way in which you write it.

 

Ikabukaro (name of village)
Behind no longer in existance japanese airbase, Azuma. Outskirts of Tokyo.
Also, since I quit aikido in about 1970, its really hard for me to engage in a technical conversation without looking up the ideas on the internet first. Sorry, but I will try. I guarantee you I will try.
My name is mud over there. I dropped out when they fired Tohei. Even though I didn't like his techniques at all. There is a good reason why osensei promoted only him to 10th dan. The reason is that osensei thought that Tohei taught ki better than anyone, even his own son, so he gave hombu to Tohei.
Palace plots iced that one. I know, I was there. That's why my name is mud.
Jigoro Kano promoted about 10 to 10th. All were alive when I arrived in Japan in 1963, I even know an american 2nd dan that actually accidently threw one once. Until the old man turned him into a paper airplane. The old Judokas had a lot of ki as well.
By the time I left Japan in 1969, all were dead, I think.
Why don't you hold every one else to the standards that you hold me?

 

Because you are at a higher standard. There are fewer and fewer that have trained first hand. In some ways, roadtoad, you may be speaking facts as you know them, but in doing so you are attacking some others' teachers or people held in high regard. This is hard to accept.

One of the things that I've seen in the politics of marital arts is that some that were around long ago, come back and start to bad mouth others, now 40 years later. They end up trying to say they were something special by claiming association with great teachers of the past, when in reality, if those they bad mouthed were still around, they would say... oh that was that whitebelt that couldn't take the hard training and now he is claiming to be something special...

The ones that were there knew who showed up and trained hard and those that made excuses not to. But these people that are making false claims wait until the others are gone so there is no one to oppose their false claims and tell the true story about the person.

Personally, I don't think this is the case with you roadtoad. You are who you are and you have come to establish that you aren't just claiming to be something special by association. You are just trying to tell it how you see it.

Not everyone, however, is as easy going as me.

 

Sure. Throw me a bone and tell me which posts you want merged in. Otherwise I'll end up hacking another thread to bits and have all complaining I moved something that didn't need to be moved.

 

Everybody else is happy to divulge exactly at what level and standard they train to. So we can gauge their level of knowledge. If you walk into a dojo where nobody knows you and tell them everything they're doing is wrong. Expect to get a hard time.

You haven't come to MAP as a casual observer. You've turned up and made some pretty bold claims about the nature of your training and who you've trained with. Some of which require a pretty damn high standard.

So yes. People will hold you to a very high standard. It's the way of life when you claim to be more than you likely are.

 

Sorry, posted about kotegaeshi in rebels thread w/o realizing this one had been started.

Anyways, also wanted to add that I have also heard during a seminar that the hand is kept level from one of o sensei students.

The reasoning behind this as it was explained, was to keep the energy nage gives to uke, and any possible response uke might give due to those perceptions of the added energy to a minimum.

With no variance in the system, no energy expended raising the hand, less for uke to react to naturally or counter intuitively.

 

no, I'm 71, its on my information place.
Sure, I've gotten the hard times since the Indian reservation.
I look white, but am one eighth indian.
All the students were indians and all the teachers were white, except for maybe one white kid in each grade.
It was a nickle a word for the poorest americans to speak their own langage.
When the white teachers heard me speaking indian, they instantly took me as a race traitor.
Some of the indians felt pretty much the same way, even thought I had taught many of their children how to speak english. They figured I was a white spy.
So I had the weight of the whole world on my shoulders at age 6.
Did I mention, 'the reservation, where murder is not even a misdemenor'.

So, yeah, I've been getting it all my life, go ahead and bring it, I wouldn't expect anything else.

 

This is one of those pieces of information that really interests me. You see it puts a context into the method.

Here is why. When watching O-Sensei and others on video... it is clear at uke's wrist rises during kote gaeshi... so would that not contradict what you were saying Izu?

No it doesn't, in fact it puts context into what is really going on. What is going on is uke is naturally lifting their wrist in the process of movement and the torque on their hand/wrist. Rather than tori raising the wrist, tori is doing the opposite, tori is not actively stopping the wrist from raising and in doing so, tori is not providing energy for uke to feed off of for a counter. Instead, tori is going with the movement and restricting the range that uke is allowed to move in other directions, then with a powerful twist, downing uke.

So it isn't that uke's wrist does not rise at some point during kote gaeshi, what is really going on is that tori should not be forcing uke's wrist to rise. Tori is more creating a void where that uke moves towards and then taking it away/redirecting it.

Make sense?

 

Oh yeah, I've been getting that 'sounds like a young guy' before. Well, that's my job, I'm an electronic technician, so I have to be up with the young guys. I have to type reports, and emails to much younger people, all the time.
thank you
bye for now.

 

So my picture of you with a bunch of whiteout on your computer monitor for where you tried to correct spelling errors is not correct then.