Resistance/ opinion

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by pseudo, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

    This thread is not ment to incur the wrath of the Trolls.

    I know that there are quite a few conversation regarding the lack of resistance training in aikido. That being said I am looking at taking aikido, I've already payed for my punch pass, now it's just a matter of making time and attending clsss.

    Would like to know if it is possible to train with resistance. I have recently learned that there are more then one style of aikido which came to a bit of a surprise to me. Are there any that focus on resistance training?

    And now for a more opinion derived question? How are you more experienced practitioners enjoy aikido after X amount of year? Are you still learning new techniques? Is it still as enjoyable or more so? Can you see your self doing it in your old age/ retirement age? How are your joints after extensive training? Some of thos locks seem like they can cause damage over time.

    Will probably have more questions later. Im looking at aikido as a long term practice so I would like to know what you long term vets have to say.
     
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The short answer is "yes you can" - the caveat is "but not until you are ready"

    Aikido is as much about the art and tradition as actually fighting application, although there is some in there. At first just concentrate on getting the basics down.

    Now if you are doing it expressly for self protection purposes then you may have made a bit of a wrong choice because it's not the most applicable of arts out of the gate
     
  3. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    You have to train none resistance first before you can train full resistance. The

    - none resistance is to train solo technique.
    - full resistance is to train combo technique.
     
  4. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    agreed on many points. there is more "martial" aikido out there, but maybe more difficult to find, at least for beginners. in my experience, the best aikido dojos will teach something useful right off the bat though. the very first class, the instructor should teach how to get off the line of attack properly. after that, everything else will fall into place.
     
  5. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    The role of UKE in Aikido is difficult to pin down as each style of Aikido can have sometimes a completely different idea of what ukes role should be.

    One thing is always for sure the idea of resistance in terms of trying to stop is wrong, especially in the fist 2 levels of training ie Kihon and awase. But the opposite is just as bad where uke blends with the the tori/nage (person applying the tech) when they should be attacking only.

    It can be a very fine line, in Iwama (the birthplace of Aikido) they become very heavy as uke's but only to make you work every single part of your body to understand how to properly Awase/blend with the attacker. Sometimes this can seem like they are resisting as they are so heavy but this is only to make your awase better and your body stronger at the same time. If someone is trying to stop what your doing physically then its useless training until your at a higher level and can properly use atemi/strikes. as I said the the opposite is just as bad where the attacker just moves with you and moves thinking about there fall instead of just attacking, IMHO this is really bad. Don't know if this helps but good luck and I hope you really enjoy your study
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  6. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

    No. No self defence purpose intended here. I have boxing for that. I do however like the ability to apply what I learn in practical application, sparing, practice. I enjoy sparing a lot in a personal growth kind of way. I find sparing allows you find which areas you need to work at more and areas you excel at. Which is why I asked about resistance.
     
  7. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    At the club I trained with we had a graduated level of resistance. The more experienced you became the harder uke's attack would be. In theory at least. It was a Ki Aikido club which attracted a lot of people with an abundance of book derived wisdom they didn't have the years of experience to understand properly.

    Martial arts books are evil. They should all be burned.
     
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    If you alreadydo boxing you will find Aikido a nice contrast. It has much to offer and as you already have some principles from your boxing you may find a lot of crossover where you didn't expect it
     
  9. Aikidojomofo

    Aikidojomofo Valued Member

  10. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    For real situations, there are three components of martial arts that generally factor into the overall outcome. These, in order, are:

    1. Experience
    2. Attitude
    3. Skill/ability

    In Aikido, experience is generally trained through randori and having an uke that challenges you (progressive resistance or alive training).

    Attitude (superior attitude) is generally trained through having hard and sincere training. Blood, sweat, and tears. Tested when you are first to volunteer to uke in the face of danger so that others do not have to, etc.

    Skill and ability is developed but sometimes your own abilities affect your development of skill. To learn to relax and allow for technique to do the work can be very difficult when you are fast and strong and can force things to work. On the other hand, if you are very weak and slow it may seem impossible to get things to work using only technique and you may need to become stronger.

    O'Sensei, founder of Aikido, was only around 4 foot 10 inches in height but he was very strong for his size. He was strong enough in his youth to not need Aikido to get things to work. His health degraded when he got older, but some say his Aikido got stronger.

    The things that take the longest to learn should start on day one of training. If you are weak then maybe you need to get strong before you can learn to relax and allow technique to do the work. If you are strong, then you can start from day one to learn to relax and let the technique do the work. To learn to relax, you cannot start at full speed and power, you need to have a way of training slowly and with less intensity in order to develop good technique instead of using strength and speed to compensate for bad technique.
     
  12. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

    Well thanks to everyone who answered the first part of the question in this thread, im satisfied with the answers I got and the great link that was posted.

    Any aikido vets want to take a stab at part deux? Id love to hear how the practitioners of aikido of meany years feel about the art? Are you still enthusiastic about aikido as you once were?
     
  13. Aikidojomofo

    Aikidojomofo Valued Member

    Well, I'm nearly up to 4 years and my enthusiasm has not waned at all, in fact I'd say it has only increased. I train at as much as possible, in the dojo and at home. I learn something new every time I step onto the mat, I hope that never ends. I am now moving into teaching too and it's a whole new world of Aikido for me.

    In summation: Love it!
     
  14. philipsmith

    philipsmith Valued Member

    Am I still enthusiatic?

    Well after 45 years training I'm still finding new things to do and ways to do them. Still enjoy training full speed (for very short periods these days) and with and against resistance. Can't see I'll ever get to the bottom of this fascinating and frustrating art.
     
  15. Sore Knees

    Sore Knees Valued Member

    good thread!

    when I first started, if I wanted to actually do the technique, the uke had to let me do it. you have to be able to feel what its like to perform it without any resistance. although this should just be a couple of times with an experienced uke, they will gradually start making you really do it. so just when you thought you had got something down, you realise they were just letting you away with murder but that's good because they think you're ready and able to perform it properly.

    after a few years you may practice with someone from out with your club and all of a sudden something you do all the time at your own club doesn't really work on them. you always have to find a way to relax and do it. personally I find I'm either forcing it or being lazy and need a kick up the proverbial and it's all ok afterwards.

    on the question of enjoyment. it depends what mood I'm in. some nights I come home in a huff that we were wasting our time and didn't achieve anything. other nights I come home full of beans and come on here to see if here are any cool videos and then dream of being great.

    as with all pastimes, it depends who you are and what you put in. in my limited experience, the more effort you put in with others, especially those less experienced than you, the more you get out of the whole experience and end up improving anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2013
  16. BklynJames

    BklynJames Kung Fu New Jack

    "Would like to know if it is possible to train with resistance. I have recently learned that there are more then one style of aikido which came to a bit of a surprise to me. Are there any that focus on resistance training? "

    "How are you more experienced practitioners enjoy aikido after X amount of year?"
    Think of it as painting a picture. Over time you get better, faster, and able to feel a persons center.

    " Are you still learning new techniques?"
    All the time. One thing you must remember is YOU are in charge of your training. Go to seminars, train at other schools, make it fun.

    "Is it still as enjoyable or more so?"
    I love it more now than when I started. Simply because when you get better at something and start to understand it more its alot more interesting.

    "Can you see your self doing it in your old age/ retirement age?"
    Without a doubt. My teacher is 75 and he is awesome...!!

    " How are your joints after extensive training? Some of thos locks seem like they can cause damage over time."
    Im going on 12 years and you become extremely flexible. Just keep stretching and take time off when you BODY needs it..
     
  17. aikidoka-je

    aikidoka-je Blue Floral Belt

    Resistance training is a must.
    So is variation.
    Aikido is not restricted to the techniques often taught. - These techniques are derived from the Daito Ryu of Takeda Sōkaku.

    There are infinite ways the Uke can attack. There are many varitions of all techniques that be used.
    Each technque (learned or devised) requires gradual resistance training.
     
  18. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    Aikido is no different than judo or jujitsu - you need to practice static kata, both sotai dosa and tandoku, before adding resistance or randori practice. Heck, judo even has uchi komi, a form of kata where you stop the technique after off balancing opponent, vice finishing the throw.

    I've been training aikido for 14 years. I've trained in karate for longer (though not much anymore), and also train in jujitsu, judo, and (rarely) iaido. I consider aikido my base art. I've gone through fluctuating of training intensity, and am now on one of my peaks...its hard to go an hour without thinking about training.
     
  19. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

    Wow, this was like my first or second thread/post that I had ever done after joining map. I'd completely forgotten about this thread. Surprised it even shows up.

    That's an interesting post considering I'm starting Judo in September. I love aikido at the moment and dedicating as much time to it as possible. I've managed to pressure my sensei into adding additional classes during the summer and mayhaps take some time off during the weekend to do, day long intensives. It's in the works.
     
  20. afhuss

    afhuss Valued Member

    Post Script - I meant no different in that you need to start out practicing static to learn the techniques...prior to doing it in randori.

    Buuuut...that's not entirely true. We do randori in our dojo from day one in judo and jujitsu (judo and jujitsu is the same class, so I'll just say judo). Aikido is, to some degree, going to always be somewhat compliant. This nature makes aikido a martial art much more prone to accidental injury. Both the uke and the nage can be the cause of injury. in Judo, its less likely for an injury to occur. You will likely get the wind knocked our of you, in judo, or just non-stop owned in jujitsu...but the chances of broken joints, or neck injury is less. Newbies will have pinch bruises, mat burn, possibly a jammed finger...but nothing serious. Most of our senior students are great to roll with - they really have a feel for what the new student is doing..so its 'smart resistance.' Say we practiced jujigatame....when randori time comes, that's all you know, so so your partner will pretty much let you hit it a few times, then slowly start making it more difficult, then countering you when you put yourself in a bad position while trying to get the juji.

    You sound like you have a great attitude about your training. I think you posted something about not having a concern for self-defense or fighting skills. This is a great mindset to approach a budo as it opens you up to many benefits of training.

    If you live in Ohio I'd be more than willing to do some summer intensive training with you. I have keys to my dojo and often train there on my own, or with friends, in free time...sometiems getting into some "intensives," as you say.
     

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