Problems with... denial?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Anarch, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    You were probably posting as I was...but again, it's not me doing the techniques. Maybe I should re-do that video.

    I'm totally with you there. Aikido was developed in a particular place and time, based largely on techniques designed for use with weapons, and modified (both techniques and purpose) for philosophical reasons.

    My "problem" is that a great many people DO practice aikido thinking it is functional for self defense. So my aim is to demonstrate why it's not, AND how they can apply various aikido techniques by using more functional/realistic entries.

    IMO, "martial" arts were originally intended to be functional. When they're not, something is wrong. Something is missing. Otherwise, they would be better labeled as "cultural arts" or something along those lines. To a great many people, "martial arts" have a self defense implication. And they should!

    I agree with you that trying to do a tskui kotegaeshi against a punch is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Yet, it's a technique taught in most aikido schools, and in my experience no one is told...hey, let's do this technique against a punch...but keep in mind it won't work. So it's not ME that's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. I'm trying to make the peg round first. :)

    We're probably on the same page there.
     
  2. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    You aren't doing the "Aikido" in the clip?

    Oh sorry. :D


    So it's your faulty for the poor distancing, targeting and timing? :evil:

    :D
     
  3. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    In the clips where I'm wearing the boxing gloves, I disagree that the distance is significantly off. It is however a demonstration of techniques, and not sparring or fighting.

    But it also is, because the aikido techniques won't work, whereas the techniques I'm demonstrating will. Or put it this way...the aikido techniques my partner demonstrates (I agree...very poorly demonstrates!) are VERY low %. The techniques he's demonstrating that I'm "advocating" are far higher %.

    I hope not!
     
  4. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    That, my friend, was on purpose. :) I may have slightly exaggerated the distance, timing, and commitment level of the attacks for just a little bit of comedic affect...strange as my sense of humor may be.
     
  5. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Dento will have a heart attack if he views the vid in question.
     
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Certainly on a lot of the initial strikes tori could just stand still and not be at risk of contact.

    Even if it is a scripted demo these things should be tight, in fact because it is scripted they should be bang on.



    I think you were correct before, it probably would be good to do that clip again. It's unfair to be ripping into a guy who has no experience doing the art.
     
  7. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    Point taken. I have limited time to make videos, and even though I knew I should have shot the material again, doing the techniques myself, I put it up because it's what I had.

    Again though, what's more important are the points I'm trying to make, which are valid as ever. :)
     
  8. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    Alright guys...you were both right. I shouldn't have put up that video in haste. I've deleted the video and will make a new one where I demonstrate the techniques myself. The rest of the videos on my site are far better technically, where I'm demonstrating techniques. This one needs to be the same.

    The page is still up, and IMO the text is 100% valid. I'll post back when I've got the new video done. Thanks for the advice!
     
  9. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Here's the video to make with your friend:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKuW5M2P8TI&feature=youtu.be"]昭和45年第3回江戸å·åŒºåˆæ°£é“連盟演武会 (Aikido seminar in Edogawa 1970) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  10. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    After correspondence with a high level martial arts instructor I respect, I've realized my original aikido video should remain...and I've re-uploaded it. Here's why, as I explain in the caption:

    My partner in the video has never practiced aikido. So his aikido techniques don't look good. Granted. But they serve to magnify the problems with the way aikido techniques are traditionally applied with respect to realistic self defense. They illustrate my logically valid points even better due to the larger circles that are more visible to the average person, etc.. But perhaps more importantly, they show a person who has never trained aikido first applying aikido techniques as they're taught on day one, and then applying them in a more functional manner. It's clear in the video that the functional method of application is far superior to the traditional method. So the video serves its purpose well.

    I understand it may be hard for an aikido practitioner to get past seeing poor aikido techniques in a video that criticizes the way they're done. They exaggerate the problems/criticisms. But in doing so, they make them more obvious.

    The facts remain: that aikido as traditionally taught is not functional for self defense due to the nature of the attacks trained, the exaggerated level of commitment used by the attackers, and the necessary cooperation of the attackers to make the defenses work. I challenge anyone who disagrees to approach a boxer or wrestler with no aikido training, ask them to attack as hard and fast as they can, tell them not to let your defense succeed, and see what happens. I can guarantee you the traditional aikido defense will fail against a fully resisting uncooperative opponent.

    I know this because I went through the experience myself. I also recall as another member in this thread mentioned, watching new students come to the aikido school I trained at, and the teacher's techniques not working against them. They never worked against new students...until the student was instructed exactly how to attack and how to respond to the defense. Of course, in reality you won't be able to tell your attacker how to attack, and how to cooperate with your defense.

    My point actually is not to bash aikido. It's to point out that aikido techniques CAN work. Aikido principles CAN also work. But in order to make them functional you must modify the entries in a way that allows you to realistically get control of your opponent in an uncooperative environment. That's the primary thing missing from most aikido training.

    Don't take my word for it. Try it! Tell your partner not to let your technique work, no matter what. Tell him to attack you at random and fully resist. Better yet, don't use your aikido training partner, because he'll be programmed to attack and respond in a way that makes your aikido techniques work. Do it with someone who has not practiced aikido. Then, when your technique fails, try it with the entries I demonstrate in the video. Find out for yourself which works better.

    It's a beautiful video, and impressive for a number of reasons. But watch the attackers. They do not attack like any real attacker would. The applications of those techniques would absolutely fail under real, uncooperative pressure by someone who has not trained aikido. Sorry.
     
  11. St Matt

    St Matt Valued Member

    Maybe they just fail for you because your weak ;-) only joking!

    I agree to some extent that the traditional looking attacks in these demos don't look realistic but I completely disagree that aikido defenses don't work. We practise against punches, jabs, kicks, combos, stabs, grabs, chokes etc and we have one particular student that is built like an oak tree and believe me he resists, plus he is even harder to fight against as he sometimes has the added bonus of knowing what technique you are going to do. Remember that if someone attacks you for real they dont know what your going to do and will have trouble resisting it 'at full speed' plus I wouldn't always be trying to grab a wrist, not in the first instance anyway, I will be looking to block/blend (whichever is required) then a swift fist to the face or wherever and hopefully a throw or lock.

    Also remember that the dude that created aikido wasn't exactly a saint, he knew how to kill and did kill, he also knew how to destroy people if he so wished. I'm not saying everyone could use it to the same degree but you could also say that about karate!

    Aikido when practised as a martial art is a true martial art (ignore the hippies) and can be extremely effective. I'm not saying its the easiest to pull off but if you do its fight over!
     
  12. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    No offense... But you can practice ballet against punches, jabs, kicks, etc. The question is, how is your training structured? Are you training against completely random attacks that do NOT follow particular lines? Do the punches you're training against look like they do in every other aikido school, or do they look like they do on the street? Do they come down singular paths, overcommitted? Or is your opponent throwing punches that do not follow clean lines?

    Resistance is only one part of training against an uncooperative opponent. There's a big difference between resisting an attack and fighting back. When the student who is built like an oak tree resists, is he energetically trying to kill you with a multitude of techniques? Or is he just resisting your defense, muscularly?

    If someone is stabbing at you with a knife, are they doing one huge stab and not using their free hand? Or, are they intermittently hitting you with their free hand while attempting to stab you over and over again?

    Also remember that people change, and the fact that they may or may not have been able to take someone out has nothing whatsoever to do with a system they created based largely on spiritual ideals.

    I challenge any thinking person to watch footage of Ueshiba doing no-touch throws and take that seriously. Watch the attacker.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  13. St Matt

    St Matt Valued Member

    No offense to you either but its the same old blah blah blah that you get in every 'aikido dunt werk' thread. There is always ah yes but do they resist? 'yes'. ah I mean do they resist and fight back? Is it random attacks? 'yes'. ah I mean is it random like what would happen in the street? do they stab? 'yes'. ah I mean do they sonic boom headbut you quicker than a hammer drill can and was it Mike Tyson? There always seems to be some other angle when your first doubt/question is answered. Once again Aikido if practised as a martial art works, simple as that, like many other martial arts! Accept it or don't the choice of course is yours. I personally know it does!
     
  14. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    Well, I sincerely hope you never have an occasion where you need to defend yourself.

    My questions are 100% valid, and you haven't answered them. To quote Burton Richardson: "In order to learn how to fight you must fight against someone who is fighting back." THAT is what is missing in the vast majority of aikido training.

    It doesn't have to be that way though! I'm not suggesting that you abandon aikido, but that you think about the material in my video, give it a try, and see what you learn. ;) You can make it functional. Or you can keep doing it the way you have been. That is indeed your choice. And it really doesn't matter which choice you make as long as you're not faced with a real attack. Just trying to help here...
     
  15. St Matt

    St Matt Valued Member

    Been faced with a real attack, used aikido, am still here, aikido worked in my self defence.

    I will point out that I am definitely not a master of the art, only 4th kyu, so granted if a 2nd degree black belt of karate attacked me I probably wouldn't last long but can a 4th kyu of any art say any different? All I am saying is that I defended myself using aikido against a self proclaimed hard man throwing punches in a pub. Aikido worked!
     
  16. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    FunctionalSD, what qualifies you to make the claims you do?

    Self defence is a seperate skill to be learnt outside of a regular martial arts lesson. To be able to put your neck, and possibly someone elses safety, on the line you must have had both experience and perhaps qualifications in the SD field.

    I don't ask to be disrespectful, but to understand where you are coming from and your knowledge on SD.

    It would be easy to dismiss Karate kata as inapplicable to self defence, indeed I have done so myself. I don't like kata and certainly wouldn't practice it for SD, however, I would not come on here and totally dismiss it because I have this year been to several seminars and self defence days and seen it work for those who practice it.
     
  17. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    I'm glad it did. :)

    But I'm talking about a real attack vs. some fool throwing punches in a pub. But in any case, good luck.

    Would it hurt you to try the techniques I demonstrate in the video and report back on how they work compared to traditional aikido?
     
  18. St Matt

    St Matt Valued Member

    See this is what I mean, always something else. Some people are just not capable of accepting that aikido is capable of working so they constantly rephrase/requestion everything!

    I will have a gander at your vid tho.
     
  19. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    No problem Simon. Any questions are fine. :)

    Experience.

    I taught self defense full time for 9 years, ending in 2007. I've used the material myself both on the street and against entirely uncooperative opponents in training/sparring settings. I've experienced a lot of violence, including 5 separate shootings.

    I love martial arts, and that includes aikido. What I'm trying to do is spread the lessons I've learned about making them functional. Over the years I've met MANY martial artists who looked great in training and thought what they were doing was totally functional...only I was easily able to show them it wasn't at all.

    It's amazing how easy it is to become conditioned. In a group setting this is natural. So you end up with school after school, where people haven't been exposed to real violence, where the techniques and training methods have evolved AWAY from "martial" arts and into something else.

    As I said to St Matt...that's ok...until it's not. So I'm trying to help on that front.
     
  20. FunctionalSD

    FunctionalSD Valued Member

    I don't question whether you've used aikido in a bar fight. If you say you have, I'll take you at your word.

    I've used relatively non-functional wing chun trapping on the street too.

    My point really isn't that aikido cannot ever work, or that there aren't some situations that it can work in. Surely you can use it against a child, someone who is drunk/slow/impaired, etc. But there is a reason you don't see aikido in MMA events, aside from the philosophical issues some practitioners have. The reason is...it doesn't generally stand up to real, uncooperative attacks.

    But it can. :) That's all I'm trying to get across here. Train realistically. 90%+ martial arts schools are not doing that. If you do, you'll see that certain techniques will work and others will not. You'll have to adapt the way you apply even the ones that do work. To me, as a self defense instructor, that's very important.
     

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