Problems with... denial?

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Anarch, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. Anarch

    Anarch Valued Member

    I'm a 5th Kyu in Ki Aikido and have been training for 4 months or so. I've seen a lot of techniques all the way up to Shodan and I have to say I really appreciate the art. Recently, though, I asked one of the Shodans a "what if" question.... What if you come up against someone who isn't compliant and doesn't throw obvious attacks? What do you do if someone attacks you in a very confined space (such as an elevator) where you don't have much room to perform?

    I know theres hundreds of answers and that topic could go on and on, but I just wanted to get a feel for how realistic he was about our training. So he started showing some techniques that look nice, but are extremely impractical and unrealistic. I've also heard multiple times "If you were in a real fight..." and watched our Sensei demonstrate stuff that would never work due to compliance and complexity. My favorite was when he tried to get me in multiple locks and all failed because I wasn't compliant and didn't even know how to be, so I was rolling on the floor escaping every lock he put me in (On accident), and that was my first day. I can't help but be a little discouraged when that topic comes up due to our instructors over-confidence in impractical self-defense techniques...

    So, how do you deal with that? I'm NOT saying Aikido is ineffective at all so please don't take it as me dogging on Aikido. I take it for the philosophical/mental aspect and a lot of the training is extremely helpful but when the word "martial" comes up and he starts dancing around an opponent and actually believes a fight looks like that, then I start to question.

    Opinions? I could be wrong. Maybe they could whoop my ass but until then, how would you address this issue? Ignoring its fine but I'm more concerned about the students who have such confidence in stuff that won't work and might actually end up in that situation.
     
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    you switch schools. look up koyo's profile here and go through his posts, you'll learn a lot about applicable aikido. the guy who's now running his club also posts here as makotokai, so his posts are also a good place to look.
     
  3. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Asking "what if xyz" is usually not helpful to learning at your level. I would go so far as to say that it generally impedes learning. The reason for that is that you lack the context to understand the art. You won't understand the invisible little details that make things work. Wait until you have absorbed enough aikido to make up some of your own flow sequences and your own reactions to standard attacks, and then ask your questions again.

    FWIW, aikido doesn't need a lot of space to work. We can fight in elevators. Uke will just hit the wall instead of rolling out. Gee, so sad. ;)
     
  4. Anarch

    Anarch Valued Member

    Well, Sensei asked if we had any questions and we were on the topic of realism/self-defense, I believe. He also doesn't mind 'what ifs', so I went for it. And I do understand that I don't know enough to make it effective and whatnot. It's not that I don't think Aikido can handle realism, but the fact that what I was show absolutely would not work in a fight. But I plan on sticking with it and I'm sure I'll develop my own sort of system that will fit me naturally but I'd just like to see a little more realism and less BS in the classes but like you said, I do lack the understanding to properly judge Aikido, but I do feel the applications could be more realistic (I guess more specifically to Ki Aikido)
     
  5. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    From the little Aikido I've done so far I'd say it can be useful in a "real" situation , once you learn to apply the principles properly.
    You have to remember that Aikido , like many traditional martial arts , is something of a slow burner when it comes to skill acquisition
    You may spend a whole lesson on 1 or 2 techniques and not move on until your teacher is happy that you understand the fundamental principles involved , this seems to be the main criticism leveled at all tmas.
    That said , is there another Aikido school you could go and see fo comparison ?
     
  6. Anarch

    Anarch Valued Member


    No, nothing near here. And it's not necessarily that I dislike my instructors. Love the gym, senseis, and students but its the lack of realism when we start talking about the Martial aspect of Aikido.
     
  7. caveman

    caveman Threadkiller

    I know its all been said before, but having a background in or crosstraining judo is absolutely invaluable in Aikido. I heard/read many very high level people in Aikido remark that most of the top guys, the ones who could really fight, also did Judo. Henry Ellis for one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012
  8. OwlMAtt

    OwlMAtt Armed and Scrupulous

    I don't think it necessarily needs to be judo, but the best aikido guys I know do have some cross-training in something with some kind of live sparring.

    On the topic of the thread, I wouldn't get too hung up on self-defense at your level. What we do in aikido dojos is not realistic combat training. If you like what you're doing, keep doing it. Once you've mastered the basics, then worry about application.
     
  9. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    And I'd counter by saying, if the goal of live application doesn't drive everything you do in class, you're missing the "ai" in aikido and all of your training will be an abstraction. This is fine until you can recall the gross movement but after a couple repetitions you should be looking at how to control your opponent and feeling and responding to realistic feedback. Otherwise you collect a series of paired dances but never actually develop your ability to feel and coordinate with your opponent's movement and/or intent. AFAIK that's the central principle in aikido, and I know it's the skill from which all others develop in any martial art. So while I agree that self-defense doesn't have to be the end-all goal, the ability to do what you practice "live" MUST be the base upon which all goals are built. Otherwise the practicioner simply will never attain any genuine understanding or competence.

    And Anarch, if you can't find another Aikido school, it's time to switch Martial Arts. From what you're saying, that school is a dead end. I've seen dozens just like it.
     
  10. Anarch

    Anarch Valued Member


    Like I said, I take it for the philosophical aspect. As far as the SD applications go, until I can get a better understanding and mold it to fit my style, I'll just be taking it with a grain of salt.... a lot. I enjoy Aikido and it helps in multiple ways, but none of which would come to help me in a real situation, other than maybe de-escalation but even then, that only goes so far. I'm hoping to start at another place I used to train at and cross train the two.
     
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Lack of space = hit them, aikido is 70% atemi according to the yoshinkan.
     
  12. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Which if you read it the way I do means that aikido is supplementary to a striking art. In other words it is a tool in your toolbox, not the whole shebang.
     
  13. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Oh of course. Even those who pursue self defense over a long term tend to do it more to develop themselves as people than to neccesarily navigate a violent encounter. But I think generally you'll find that the mental and emotional development in martial arts comes from hard work towards a concrete goal over a long time. It's tons of failures and re-attempts and constant honest, critical introspection.
    If he's claiming to teach a martial art and is martially incompetent, he isn't prepared to teach anyone martial arts. No matter what you expect to get out of your training, all you can expect with that sort of teacher and that sort of environment is shallow study, dishonest practice and intellectually cowardly justifications for failures. You've said this has happened fairly regularly and that's not the sort of environment that fosters personal growth.

    I mean really, how can one expect to develop philosophically from an art without even a functional understanding of it?

    I'm not telling you how to train, I'm just trying to point out what many of us have already found through experience: there is no good in those places.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  14. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I gotta agree with what K-J said, but particularly in the context of one thing Anarch said: "I enjoy Aikido and it helps in multiple ways, but none of which would come to help me in a real situation."

    Anarch, if that's really the aikido that you're seeing at that dojo, I gotta recommend that you leave. Legitimate aikido is as good as any other martial art. If these guys really can't fight -- and I leave that as an "if" because I don't know them -- then what Kurtka said is right.
     
  15. Anarch

    Anarch Valued Member

    Last two posters definitely have some valid points. I just don't want to hit black belt and still question the authenticity of our style (or any style, for that matter). I'll have to see if the old place I trained at will take me back. Until then, I'll stick with it but I appreciate all the advice.
     
  16. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    Im going to say something that people may not like, but KI Aikido is NOT a Martial Art. We all know that some schools are based on just exercise and looking at the art for its deeper ideas. Im afraid if you do stay till BB you will be very disappointed as you do seem to be asking questions already so you know what you are looking for. Yes Traditional based arts do take longer to get of the ground than others but its down to the person to train alot to get there quicker. Im saying this from someone who has trained in MA for 21 years and 16 of them in Traditional Aikido and during this time I have trained in 2 KI schools in Scotland and 3 in OZ and they all expected the attacker to give his balance to the tech and blend with tori/nage. doing this prohibited the defender from seeing or feeling any mistakes they where making as it was based on far too much cooperation. There IS very Martial and effective Aikido schools out there and the best advice to know how to find these is to look over Koyos advice he gave us all on this forum
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  17. Anarch

    Anarch Valued Member

    At least you're up front about it. I'd much rather these guys be a little more real and at least admit that they're style is flawed or be more realistic but they put too much faith in stuff that has no practical application.
     
  18. St Matt

    St Matt Valued Member

    I realise this is far from a perfect solution but could the tecniques you have learned be done in a more martial way? I dont mean go and beat the snot out of your dojo mates but lets say if someone did have a pop at you could you use the techniques you have trained in but with a little (or a lot?) more power/strength/aggression? Could you shaddow train on your own, go through the techniques but see where you can add a strike/kick/more meaningful throw? Look at other styles and compare how they do it including some Aiki-jutsu.

    Again I realise this is not really the way to do things and is straying away from pure Ki Aikido in the technical sense but as a tempory means maybe and especially if you have no other Aikido dojo's nearby? Aikido techniques when done with more purpose can be quite devistating. Get a punch bag and practise your striking.

    And that saying about using no strength in Aikido is true but you also have to realise that if the no strength attempt doesnt work you must be prepared to muscle your way through the technique, maybe not in the dojo but definately on the street. So a little fitness/strength training is good also if you dont do it already?
     
  19. Anarch

    Anarch Valued Member

    I've actually been doing a little bit of that and hopefully I can find a decent sparring partner to try some techniques on with resistance, aggression, speed, etc.
     
  20. snake_vs_crane

    snake_vs_crane Valued Member

    If the philosophical aspects you hope to develop are to do with Zen or Budo, you should know both of those are very truth centric. Learning them from someone in major denial is like taking a detox and body cleansing seminar from Keith Richards :p
     

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