Must haves

Outstanding work, that's exactly what kids classes (and all intro classes really) should be like.

 

I did?
Guess it had me more thinking about it, that it should.
They were just drilling; it was at the beginning of the lesson, and I only was still there, because my Judo-teacher wasn't done changing (at the time, he would take me to the main station).

I don't burst out in tears, but it totally ruins the day and training for me as well, if something unusual happens - and different people, especially instructors, is the worst unusual it got so far for me.
And I'm not a kid anymore unfortunately.

Therefore this:

Is just AWESOME!

 

That is really nice to read,but as a presumably,confident adult student is that sort of atmosphere still important to you?

 

Obviously not as much (there are a couple of us that don't mind dinging each other up a bit) but I still value it and getting the balance between hard training that still enables the people that really need it to take part is something that fascinates me.

 

Personally I think a supportive and nurturing atmosphere is always a plus, regardless of whether or not you yourself require it.

Travess

 

Why?

My attitude has always been to get everything I can out of training for myself,if I can only spar with people half my size then I practice my movement for example.
I don't worry about what anyone else is doing,that's up to them.

This way I can train with pretty much anyone and get something out of it.
Obviously that doesn't excuse being an idiot and beating up very inexperienced sparring partners,or being rude,bullying etc

 

it's good to train somewhere that builds people up and therefore aids their development even if you are confident. If you want to look at it from a 'what does it do for me?' perspective then consider that it aids retention, recruitment and produces better and more varied partners... Not only that but maybe you will need support at some point yourself.

 

^ spot on, more partners means a better range of partners.

 

I think that there are more skills to be gained from working WITH people, emotionally and mentally, as well as physically, than can be gained from just viewing there actions based on whether or not they affect you.

Travess

 

By build up do you mean help increase the confidence of?

If so that hasn't been my experience at all,in fact the opposite has been more true,the best gyms have either been selective or have allowed very rough sparring that acts like a filter for the less committed,the coaches have openly said if you can't take it either move on or just start coming to the fitness classes.

That's obviously not good for everyone,but imo if you can stick it out you'll train in the company of far better fighters and have access to much better sparring etc

 

Are they the best gyms because they drive away those that aren't naturals, or are they the best gyms because they teach the best skills.

Ideally it's a mix, very warm and supportive for the new members, constructive for the amateurs etc, and very down to earth with the pros, there's a place for a filter in the fight team classes, but too early it puts people off who could be great, and financially it makes a gym unlikely to last that long.

Gyms can be much more then a fight club, but it requires coaching skill.

 

Thinking about it,those gyms all had fitness only classes,they may well have been supportive etc and most of the adults were asked to go there first if they wanted to compete and the coaches would let them know if they could attend the team training,so there are gradients.

What you suggest sounds like an awful lot to expect one or two coaches to achieve,especially all in one session.

I can confirm it isn't just naturals who stick it out,but if you're not naturally gifted you have to be more committed and train smarter if you want comparable results,c'est la vie.

 

This hasn't been my experience and I've trained at every top MMA gym (high level pro fighters) in my area.

Sparring is a relationship and contact levels etc should be adjusted to each person's mutual preference. I like hard sparring and I like technical sparring. I've sparred pros in all ranges and in full MMA sparring I've also sparred newbs and teenagers in both; the ability to control and dial your intensity and pressure up or down is valuable to composure and enables you to work different aspects of your game and not always have to bring your A level smash mode... It's always nice to have people do the same for you too from time to time. When you are really outclassed it's a blessing to have the other person let you work a bit.

Also the best gyms have fighter only/fight team classes in the day for their full-time fighters as well as regular classes for the amateurs, semi pros and hobbiests.

 

I think where we differ is the separation of introduction classes, regular classes, fitness classes and fighter classes.

And that's why gyms have different results, and different fighter longevity.

 

It may depend on the gyms intention,I'm mostly talking about boxing gyms,where the sole aim is to churn out good fighters,there's no money to be made.

So when there's dozens of young people turning up they need to filter out the ones who aren't committed,in the old days apparently they didn't even show them the basics before they'd throw them in the ring!
If they weren't put off and kept coming back for more the coaches would invest time and resources in coaching them,I think it's just a toned down version of that.

I've known it be similar at other places too,a kickboxing/jujitsu type place I went to we got beasted to the point people were throwing up,would do probably 100's of press ups on our knuckles on the wooden floor and all other sorts of torture and then after all that the actual combative type training would begin,not many stuck that out for long.
Again he just didn't want to invest his time in people who weren't going to stick it out.

It wouldn't surprise me if that way of doing things is on the way out.

 

Generally that sort of place needs a constant turn over of people to stay open, the alternatives are having regular classes, that's well taught and use progressive resistance to bring people up, and separate fighter classes, that people graduate too if they're fighting, or keep open by doing fitness classes and keep regular small classes old-school.

It's always a mixed approach, but at the beginning I think it's better to have a forge, and use the actual fight training be it's own filter.

But then again I mostly Wressle men in pjs.......

 

This hasn't been my experience. I've trained at several combat sport gyms that produce and support fighters. This included one BJJ place and two Muay Thai places.

In terms of filter vs forge:
BJJ place: Very open to people with no experience nor any conditioning. Focus was on tournaments. The classes were a bit more technical than I could follow easily, but that is probably because I didn't go to the fundamentals classes (the times didn't work for me). This gym highly recommended fundamentals before joining the regular classes, but you could skip them if you wanted.
The attitude was basically "everyone should be working hard, but if you need to sit out and recover that is fine".
I liked that they had 2 main instructors who had very different focuses (basics & drilling basic things like shrimps/changing which side of your opponent you are on/etc, vs more technical deep dives into positions).
I also liked the huge space & large classes--lots of training partners, lots of room to work. BJJ classes were generally 16 - 30 people.
(This gym also offered kickboxing and MMA; didn't try their kickboxing as they didn't do any sparring, just pad work & other drills. MMA was at a secondary location too far from me, so didn't try that either.)

First Muay Thai place: Most 'filtering' of the 3. Classes were 2 hours (really brutal when not conditioned), sparring right away, lots of conditioning during class. (E.g., 3 rounds of sparring with burpees during the rest...) This was fairly rough, but still I could go slower/do less of the warm-up, etc, without issue. The quality of instruction wasn't really what I was looking for--it seems like they really focused on their fighters and didn't pay much attention to everyone else.
No segregation of classes based on skill--there was only one class offered (on many different days).
This place offered BJJ but the classes were tiny (e.g., 3 people including instructor). It also offered MMA (a bit bigger than the BJJ classes, maybe 5-7 people).
The class sizes were typically small for Muay Thai too (5-10 people).
I didn't like that many of the classes were run by an advanced student, instead of one of the actual coaches.
I got some bad coaching from that (corrected when I went to the 2nd Muay Thai place; my technique was incorrect and I didn't understand the technique correctly for a few things.)

Second Muay Thai place: Also very open to people with no experience nor any conditioning. They segregate classes into 5+ groups (new students, beginners, all-ranks, advanced, and then the fight team training), plus offer BJJ and MMA. Classes are a nice size (10-20+ people at beginner/all-ranks usually), lots of training partners to choose from.
Sparring only really happens in the advanced & team fight classes. In the beginners class we sometimes play spar, but in a more guided manner (e.g., focus on doing the techniques we drilled that day, vs totally freestyle).
The attitude at this place is similar to the BJJ place: don't be lazy/make sure you work hard, if you need to sit out to recover or slow things down to your own pace that is fine; work at a pace that is hard for you, not impossible for you.
I like that there are several different coaches who focus on different things; I can go to 3 classes in a week and have a different coach each time. But all of their coaches are fantastic, unlike the first MT place I tried (where only one of the coaches was quite good, IMO). All of their coaches were fighters at some point, and most of them (maybe all) have trained in Thailand for a couple years.
I really like the skill-segregated classes because the coaches can really focus on giving good instruction & individual corrections, instead of just pouring all their attention into their fighters.
I haven't taken any BJJ classes here, but I've seen that the class sizes are maybe 6-10 people.

Out of the 3, in terms of overall quality, the 2nd Muay Thai place & the BJJ place are quite good at their primary focus. While I didn't train in any of their other offerings, my impression is that the instruction won't be quite as top-notch at their non-primary focuses.

 

Maybe I'm being dumb or blind, but I don't see how these practices show the commitment or potential of a possible student.

I can only talk for myself now and a couple of my kid students, but for us that wouldn't have worked out.

Kids first: We have two boys who really lack the instinct of proper movement.
Imagine a ten or eleven year old, that grew so fast, that he doesn't know how to entangle the arms and legs - and multiply that.
But both work really hard, come to nearly every training and start getting the hang of things.
It's awesome to just see and also be part of that development of them.

Myself: Due to mentioned problems, I wouldn't have survived a class run like the above.
But I -and my teacher as well- see me as very dedicated, hard working and what not.

But especially my Sensei had to put lots of work into me and still does.

He *did* manage though, that I became a very good Uke for example.
As a yellow belt I could not only uke for his fifth Dan, but also got a special mentioning later in front of everybody present, for my great work.

That's something clubs the above forget about and might also be missing out.
It's not about natural talent and athleticism but also about hard work and willingness to bring that with you.
Or should be anyway, in my opinion.
The greatest talent won't be of use, if (s)he gets lazy or stops working hard.

I feel so pathetic right now, that I still would prefer small classes.
Or not only "would" but do; most of the time, we aren't that many.

Regular classes of 16-30 people would probably still kill me