Moral Injury

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Ero-Sennin, Mar 22, 2014.

  1. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    One of the leadership from the sniper platoon I was in posted this on Facebook. It's a HUGE article, but well worth the read. It provides some interesting perspective/context on morality and warfare, but can also apply to most kinds of violence as well. I thought it was pretty interesting but I still need to make it through a page and a half before I provide any sort of real opinion.

    This is the first article I've seen addressing some of the issues surrounding the militaries involved in OEF/OIF, and I think it takes a very important angle. Would be interested in hearing other people's opinion on it if you don't mind a longish read.

    (***Some strong language in specific quotes from people interviewed***) http://projects.huffingtonpost.com/moral-injury/the-grunts


    Here's a few snippets from the first page to give you an idea of what it's about, if you need something to gain your interest before diving in:

     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
  2. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    When people from a society with ethics or morality of killing (people) is a wrong; thrown into society where there is constant killing or death of people, they develop a mental state. In other words, these people suffer from a surreal denial to the point of becoming "mentally numb".

    However, in reversal, people from a society where death is everywhere, or for them, a norm, they seem "insensitive" or unemotional

    When I was deployed to a hurricane disaster in the USA, I had a colleague from India. Upon seeing dead bodies being removed, he seemed to not be bothered. After speaking with him those many months, he stated that in the countryside of India, there are human dead bodies to be seen along roadsides and railways. People simply pass by these bodies in the same manner a person will pass unidentifiable roadkill.

    The question of moral or ethics has always been challenged and debated among people from different societies/cultures. Phillipa Foot had a read called the "Trolley Problem". This could be upon a philosophical view called consequentialism. This read will, itself become a philosophical quandary. The Doctrine of Double Effect falls within this philosophical standard.

    As for a person in a military operation, likewise a sniper, morality is defined by the consequences of an action, per the action has a greater cause. In other words, likewise to a saying; "the ends justify the means".

    Ultimately, men and women who are faced with death, be it in law enforcement, the medical field, and the military; have the utmost respect from me in they having to deal with death
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  3. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    If one plays the tape forward far enough, looks around at those (nations, groups) in our world who are contentious and prone to strife; and then you look at their value of human life...

    One's view of the future, the future of our children will become very, very grim.
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Got as far as part 2 so far. Good article.

    One thing I'd like to hear from our ex-military folk about, because it's not chiming with what I know of my own friends and aquaintances who've joined up:

    "Most people enter military service “with the fundamental sense that they are good people and that they are doing this for good purposes, on the side of freedom and country and God,” said Dr. Wayne Jonas, a military physician for 24 years and president and CEO of the Samueli Institute..."

    "Navy Cmdr. Steve Dundas, a chaplain, went to Iraq in 2007 bursting with zeal to help fulfill the Bush administration’s goal of creating a modern, democratic U.S. ally."

    The Brits I've known who've joined have done it for a mixture of up to three reasons:

    1. Financial stability.

    2. To test their mettle in circumstances unavailable in the civilian world.

    3. Revenge (eg. wanting to kill IRA members because a bomb went off in their town).

    Do people in the US really have such naive nationalistic sentiments?

    I've only known one American who joined the military. He got his legs blown off by an IED and died, so I can't ask him. But if I were to hazard a guess for his motivations, I'd say that he craved a level of excitement and intensity that, in the civilian world, would land you in prison.

    I'm not trying to make this into a political argument, I'm genuinely interested if people in the US or UK really put nationalism/patriotism ahead of their own desires, and how that manifests. I've known a fair amount of military, and they all leave more cynical than they went in, but they were all pretty cynical before they joined too. None of them were singing Jerusalem as they marched off to war.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  5. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I think you haven't gotten enough exposure to military personnel to be honest. Knowing a few guys (even if it's 100-200) who felt a certain way doesn't speak for an entire military. In the U.S. at least, a lot of people join up because they bleed red, white, and blue. From my experiences with people in other countries' militaries with a volunteer force, much is the same.

    Part of the article is about how those ideals get crushed, that belief in the morality the ol' red,white, and blue "holds true to" is really based in nothing. I've known two guys who developed serious moral issues while in country, both I still have a certain disdain for. One of them we even had to remove from our team. I don't fault them for being that type of person though, I fault them for having decided to do a job (sniper) where you should have known yourself before you decided to take it. They did it for a challenge, or because being a sniper was "cool."

    I'm kind of rambling. I haven't exactly collected my thoughts yet over the article and I'm having some issues with my head injury from over doing it Thursday night of this past week. My wife is gone in New Jersey too, so something like going to the kitchen or toilet are things it takes me 30 minutes to recover from. Tons of fun. :rolleyes:

    All in all I think page 2 is where they start talking about clashes in ideals and patriotism, which would interest you. :p
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Thanks for replying.

    When I read things like:
    "how these guys define themselves, what they expect of themselves – to be heroes, the selfless servants who fight for the rest of us..."

    Or

    "“There’s always going to be people like me who are smiling the first time they get on the bus [to boot camp] – they don’t want to miss the war,” he said. “There will always be kids willing to fight, and they’re always going to pay this price, and there are always going to be guys like me who are saying, ‘Hey man, you don’t wanna do it, no, no, no, you don’t want to. It seems like fun, and I can’t tell you not to do it.’ But there’s no talking a kid out of it.”

    Only after troops get back, he said, “do we start to look at the mental effects of killing other human beings.”

    Canty’s little brother, Joe, joined the Marines in 2010 and recently deployed to Afghanistan. “I know what he’s getting into; he’s going back to Helmand Province less than 20 miles from where I was, and he’s got a grin ear to ear,” Stephen said. “And there’s nothing I can do to wipe that grin off his face because, that was me, you know? Three years earlier. Nobody could have told me.”

    Stephen’s grandfather tried. He’d been a Marine in the Pacific in World War II. “Don’t do it,” he told Stephen before he enlisted at 17. “You’re too goddamn smart, boy.”"


    It makes me wonder, if the motivation is selfless betterment of one's nation, why not volunteer your time to improve your community, become a teacher, run for public office or whatever? How can personal motivations have no part in a person's desire to go to war? The above quotes sound far more like the kind of motivations I've heard service people talk about - either seeing themselves in the role of a hero or champion, or craving intense experiences. To me it seems as if the propaganda is the excuse, not the underlying reason. People are very good at lying to themselves.

    But, as you say, my understanding of it is very limited, which is why I'm asking.
     
  7. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I think the "hero" ambitions apply to a certain majority within the military, and I think it has a lot to do with propaganda. Before I joined I think I might have had some of those feelings of grandeur, but not from propaganda as much as from stories of fiction and non fiction alike. War provides a set of circumstances that brings out the worst, but in many ways also the best, in people. You're not going to find many professions where the ideals of honor and courage can be found in an extreme situation. You also won't find a profession where the most immoral and debased acts occur either, but nobody likes to talk about those things.

    I don't think I struggle with a conflict involving morality as it applies to myself as an individual, but I have developed a kind of regret that the things I was a part of took place. My qualm is with the hypocrisy and disillusioned ideals of my nation and some of the leadership I was exposed to. I know what I'm capable of, but you won't see me parading myself around with the thoughts of being a hero. I'm not even proud of my military service honestly, I wanted to serve because I felt an obligation to serve my community (country) and I think everyone should (not necessarily in the form of military service, but public service) if they benefit from the society they are a part of. I also joined for other reasons, but I don't talk about those too much. Those are things I'm also not proud of, and if I'm talking about or thinking about them, I'm in a "different kind of mood" that's both not healthy and destructive. Don't mistake my not being proud of them as being ashamed though, because I'm certainly not ashamed either.

    I think I have the issues I have because I'm not lying to myself. Because of that I take issue with the way things have been done both at the small unit level and national level. Get me in the right state of mind and I can be very bitter. Regardless, I'm a part of the society I live in and a product of our times in the grand scheme of things. I want better than that though, because what we have now is so two-faced and is really just a lie dressed in a flag and patriotism revolving around "national interests" (aka greed and exploitation). If a fictional character described my mindset (to avoid lots of words), I would have to say Garak from DS9 describes the extent of my patriotism and what I'm willing to do in juxtaposition to my feelings of how unfortunate everything is. :p

    Any time somebody clings to the "hero" thing, it seems they either were not involved with direct combat (which is the majority of the military) or are trying to find something to cling to. I don't know. This type of article is a much different approach than what is seen most of the time but I think it's based much more in reality than the majority of stuff that's put out there. Regardless it still misses the mark in a few places, as it certainly doesn't address my own feelings on the subject entirely. Too much pity rhetoric finds itself into discussing things involved with the military if you ask me. At the same time it's extremely difficult for people who have no experience in the area and are left making various postulations to really understand what's going on.
     
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Thanks for sharing some of your thoughts Ero.

    Just so we're clear, I don't think that military personnel lie to themselves any more than civilians.

    To get where I'm coming from, I'll share this little maxim I made for myself when I was a teenager:

    Every thought is an excuse.
    Every motivation is rooted in fear.

    I did this more as a thought experiment and exercise in self-analysis, but I've found it difficult to prove false over the years.

    Anyway, I've finished the article now. I hadn't heard the term "moral injury" before. Thanks for the link.
     
  9. panderso

    panderso Valued Member

    I haven't finished the article yet, but these sort of "naive nationalistic sentiments" are exactly what led me to the US Army: patriotism, a desire to be a hero, and the myth that we were always the good guys.

    After doing a lot of serious reflection on what I was getting into and my reasons for it, I'm grateful I was able to get out before doing anything morally or spiritually damaging, and start focusing on more constructive ways to build a better peaceful society.

    I suppose I'm still pretty naive and idealistic about wanting to change the world; now I just do it in less violent ways.
     
  10. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    I'm happy I read the article and at the same time I regret doing so. I hate war, but I hate humanity for failing to prevent it even more. And when the inevitable end result of war (people getting hurt on both sides, physically and mentally) shows itself again and again, I'm just angry that we can't do any better than this. There are times I find myself having a hard time believing we are STILL killing each other. We have the worst reasons to do it while our countries try to play them off as amazing justifications to lead young men with good intentions into doing their evils for them.

    In the end I'm just another pawn who is unable to change anything and the only thing I can do is just simply being aware of the pain and suffering caused by our inability to live with each other. The worst thing is that my daily life doesn't give a crap and I just keep on going without a care in the world, apart from the occasional 'being aware' crap. But I have no choice either, because I wouldn't be able to function in my daily life if my mind was constantly preoccupied with these thoughts. I am angered by my own inability to care, not willingly but forcibly.
     
  11. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    I joined for the money. :D
     
  12. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    You know, people say that's a bad reason to serve your country. Honestly though, that's the true ideology of the U.S. isn't it? Mo money mo money. None of the moral issues described in the article can be applied to that either. Ironic.
     
  13. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    I serve my family before I serve anyone else.

    Cannot comment on the ideologies of the US, I'm not from the US.
     
  14. Starsky

    Starsky Valued Member

    Are people inherently "moral" or do they acquire those beliefs ?My belief is that the meaning and significance of your actions are superimposed by the culture / environment in which you grow up. I am not convinced humans are inherently moral and, in the right circumstances, are pretty feral.

    From the OP I think the sense is that once you are exposed to a startlingly different morality you can start to question why something is or isn't "moral" just because your culture of origin has told you it is.
     
  15. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    LOL I wonder if I ever seem suicidal to others :p

    I get sad just from reading my own posts sometimes...I'm going to spread happiness and controversy from now on, no more sadness!
     

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