Masters of Aikido: History, Anecdotes, and Oral Instruction

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by koyo, Oct 25, 2006.

  1. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.


    We must clearly understand the difference between keiko (practice/study) AND RENSHU (TRAINING). We must study in a solid pragmatic manner against strong holds and accurate powerful strikes. How else may we discover our weaknesses.

    Training simply executing the technques repeatedly we must train outside of our comfort zone but NEVER beyond our ability. This was said by Tada Shihan speaking of the tendancy to demand "harmony" from the partner which allows us to "execute" techniques in a manner which is quite beyond our ability.

    Discussing this with other aikidoka it was put forward that "eventually" this form of training beyond our ability shall become effective. I cannot agree feeling that only a solid understanding of basic principles may lead to effective technique.I saw little in the video clip that would stand up against a determined attack.

    This is NOT a criticysm of the gentelmen displaying their aikido since he does say that HIS aikido is not martial.BUT it is NOT the aikido I was taught.

    I would wish that future students were presented with aikido riai (compete aikido) and would go as far as to say that I would NOT offer a choice of which element they would prefer.

    regards koyo
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  2. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    110% koyo. the big problem is that vid is a perfect example of the main stream of so called "aikido" out there that most people are exposed to. you get alot of passive (middle class,private educated ,librals) people who have never had a fight in there life, taking up these systems and having no experinace to contest what they are shown. then this becomes the main vision of aikido, which has given it a very very bad reputation.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  3. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    hey koyo, just want to let you know, a friend of mine in Iwama has told me Sensei is getting deeper in to the sword so has started introducing a iaido master once a week into the dojo.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2007
  4. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    dentoiwamaryu typing fast for your own good reasons is fine. But it makes your posts almost impossible to read. Please take a little more care when posting and keep in mind the MAP advertising policy. ;)
  5. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    Thanks wolfie, ive had a strong coffe and sat down and went through, hopefully looks and reads a little better.
    also sorry about the advertising, never meant, but ye i can see where your coming from. it was leaning a little to that side.
  6. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    No rules broken yet. Don't worry I'll keep you on the right side of the ban list ;) I know it was innocent.
  7. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Dento iwamaryu

    I managed to miss your post 80 for some reason. I am in agreement with everything in your post except for the training with Yamada shihan. My experience was quite different I ended up training with his uke an african american gentleman and had an excellent course.I have never trained under Sugano shihan.

    I was told by Chiba shihan that he did not like teaching at large seminars as he prefared small classes where he could teach one on one.

    As for seminars, I once suggested that whichever shihan took the seminar should watch the training for a class then decide which elements of the training needed correcting and direct his attention there rather than presenting the seminar as you described. Again numbers made this most difficult.

    As for cross training I have friends who are shihan in other arts and encourage my students to cross train and this has always had a positive result.

    As for awase I see that NOT as harmonising but as blending with the purpose of
    breaking the balance changing the timing and distancing to execute a technique. Done properly the ukemi cannot pre-empt the technique and is, as it should be, a counter to absorb the force of the technique. Where aiki (harmony) already exists there is no need for aikido techniques.

    This is a principle of martial arts that says avoid aiki since if you move in the same timing and rythm as an opponent there shall be no openings or opportunity to unbalance him. Also an experienced exponent shall "catch your timing and intention" and be able to subdue you with ease.

    regards koyo

    AIKI off the mat
    AWASE on the mat
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2007
  8. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    It is the source of all the Aikido ridcule that's going. The worst of it is the ridicule is perfectly fair. People love it, you get to walk around dressed in your finest custom made gi and hakama. Swing wooden swords about made from exotic woods. It's a jedi fantasy grown up. I blame George Lucas!

    The Bear.
  9. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    from koyo-
    hey koyo, sorry ive pm'd you the info i had to remove, it was a bit close to advertising. god im such a rebel.

    about Yamada, what i meant was not really about his tech it was about the seminar, as i said from all the 7-8 techs he showed that day they looked very good, solid with no extra moves to look pretty. but what im being negative about was the lack of teaching by him. there was timne he would move about helping folks, but no explanation of the tech, whats good or bad, you know what the chief was like on seminars.(i here chiba was just as ghood with spilling the beans)
    for me it was more a ukemi workout from 10-4 with a few min in between to se him show the next tech. that takes me back to my other point about people concentrating on ukemi, that sem was a perfect example of people flying of my arms,. all my guys said the same.
    i trained with his main dude too, donavan waite, think thats who your talking about maybe, he was a gem ot train with great to throw and great techto be thrown with. plus also trained with one of your guys, Chris i think it is, short hair great big smile? always had a good dash with him on sems. great energy.

    this is true, great idea though koyo i like that.

    thanks for the input also the other part about awase you put it perfect , i think thats one of the best example's of what awase is all about

  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Yes it was Donovan Waite good guy great to train with.I think he saw me standing alone again!!! He came over and we had a good set to.

    Young Chris is just back from training in a thai boxing camp in Thailand.As you say always smiling and tough as nails.Now we have to beware of his elbows a knees.

    No doubt he shall send his regards when I tell that you said he had a LOVELY smile (poetic license) :D

    regards koyo

    Another principle often neglected that of ai uchi where I must remain in the line of attack until the critical moment. If I spun away Chris would follow. Also note his free hand ready to deflect the inevitable atemi.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 10, 2007
  11. dentoiwamaryu

    dentoiwamaryu Valued Member

    Back from thailand, that would be great to train with. should have some good tech to look at. ye elbows, ouch.
    tell him im not sure about the LOVELY smile,lol. but a great big friendly smile anyway.

    good pic on the ai uchi principle. something sensei is very strict on with weapons.
  12. Hirotaro

    Hirotaro Valued Member

    Hello Koyo,

    I agree entirely with the contents of your post, except for the Japanese distinction between keiko and renshu. Without a context, they do not have the connotations you have attributed to them. Sumo training, usually much more intense than what you tend to find in a postwar aikido dojo, is known as keiko, practised in a keikoba. On the other hand, today, when returning home from school I drove behind a learner driver. Displayed on the back of the car was the sign renshu-chu.

    Best wishes,

  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I tend to emphasise the difference between study and training. Often the last half hour of a session the sempai (senior students) shall be training in the techniques that the kohei (junior students) are studying. The training shall include counters and strikes if the principles are not applied effectively. This allows the kohei to see where their study shall eventually lead them and allows the sempai to advance in their aikido.

    Again this is the manner in which I trained in aikido as a budo.

    This is why I continue to post on MAP to show that there are still those who train in aikido as a budo.Perhaps this is why I reacted in a negative manner to the video posted.

    Best wishes for your training

    regards koyo
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2007
  14. 0gmios

    0gmios Valued Member

    Kancho Mochizuki liked to use the term Kenkyu - Research. We don't study the techniques of Aikido, we research them. This is what Kano taught him, and what he oberved O'Sensei doing.

  15. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Tamura shihan said that O SEnsei never taught the same technique in the same manner always changing it. He also said that O Sensei would not show the same technique over and over again simply demonstrating it then telling the students if they could not "steal" it find it for themselves.

    My own training was similar with the "instruction" being "You did not unbalance properly ", or "Your timing was off."

    Never any great detail.

    You were encouraged to train harder to find the secrets for yourself. Rather Like Mochizuki Kancho saying "Do not believe it because a great man said it find out for yourself."

    regards koyo
    Tamura shihan

    Attached Files:

  16. 0gmios

    0gmios Valued Member


    What about Hikitsuchi Sensei?


    He has some very similar things to say about the eyes.

  17. aikidoka-je

    aikidoka-je Blue Floral Belt

    great posts koyo
  18. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi aikidoka je

    I am glad you find the thread of interest. I started it in the hope that it would inspire beginners and cause instructors to renew their efforts to maintain the martial aspects of aikido.

    I see you like drawing and are male. That's three things we have in common.

    Best wishes for your training. Koyo
  19. aikidoka-je

    aikidoka-je Blue Floral Belt

    there is a realy good master from sweden named stafan stenudd
    [ame=""]Aikido - IKKYO - YouTube[/ame]
    he looks awesom in the video great performence
  20. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    That is a demonstration of a form of aikikai aikido. My form is traditional aikido and therefore stresses atemi etc.

    Check out martial arts of aikido threads here on MAP. Your comments shall be welcome.Or search youtube..makotokai for a demo of basic techniques.

    regards koyo
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2008

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