Considering Aikido is an art which involves the use of the entire body I can see how someone could be thrown or shaken off without the use of the hands should they get a grip. But then again I study Ki Aikido which can't really be Aikido can it. After all it does diverge from the othordox line. As for your statement being political. Yes it is. You've just publically accused an entire organisation or line of teaching of being fake or some how invalid. Not only is it political, but we're back again to the same old hum drum Humm discussion. You really don't seem to be able to even discuss Aikido without bringing up the validity of everybodys teaching. The trouble with that tired old discussion is we've all heard it before. You're like the teacher who constantly preaches to his students who attend reguarly how important regular attendance is.
HI GUYS Iwill at the outset admit to having had prejudices at one time regarding different schools of aikido. Until I had this lesson from (would you believe) and old american indian friend. Here it is. Imagine a mountain top, it is midnight, a man sits alone there. He is utterly at peace. Same mountain same midnight different man. He feels afraid while another may feel lonely while yet another may feel nothing. The point being the mountain top and the midnight are the same the reactions however are quite different even opposite ie at peace and afraid. The point being each of the reactions are SINCERE AND HONEST. I think that there is only one aikido and thousands of interpretations. Therefor so long as it is SINCERE AND HONEST I have no axe to grind. edit If someone were to attack me from the side grasping my right shoulder intending to wrap his left arm around my neck to strangle me if using judicious timing and kuzushi I should step forward and go to suwari I can throw him. (look ma no hands!) Kokyu nage? is that not Ki Nage? maybe we have more in common than we think. Koyo Another edit Gerry one of the makotokai said something to me today that really struck home. We should not have associations instead we should place more importance upon associating with each other. Good one Gerry.
If someone was to look at a family tree of all of Aikido from the beginning to now, would not all Aikidoka, regardless if they train original method or not, still be brothers, sisters, cousins... family.
You really seem to thave your knickers in a twist. Who on earth has ever told you that Ki aikido isn't an orthodox line of aikido? I guess Koichi Tohei wasn’t in fact one of the founder’s most gifted students then Care to share exactly which organisation or line of teaching I've accused ? I mention an example of aikido which has in my opinion undergone the process of devolution; but no names were ever divulged. As for no handed throws; please feel free to give examples including the names thereof; where a person is truely "thrown" to the floor without use of one's hands. I'm not asking for principle based movements such as kokyu, but technical application. I can if you wish, demonstrate many threads and posts where I discuss various aspects of our art, however; feel free to show me (presumably in red text) where in the TOS it states that I can't express an opinion valid to a particular topic; even if that involves repeating that several times. Furthermore, feel free to demonstrate that I am in fact wrong in the statements I've made. Otherwise, drop the patronisation. No one is forcing you to read or indeed contribute to this thread. Is there ? Indeed I may make statements and express opinions which many in our art's community don't like to hear, but so far no one has managed to actually prove what I'm saying is anything other than truthful. Uncomfortable, some say politically motivated, but truthful never the less.
Guys PLEASE I once attended a martial arts demonstration where a "shihan" demonstrated "ki aikido" by sitting on a chair and without moving from that chair proceeded to throw FOUR SWORDSMEN "ATTACKING" SIMULTANEOUSLY.i WAS IN THE COMPANY OF HIGH GRADE KARATEKA AND KENDOKA WHO HAD ALL TRAINED IN AIKIDO WITH ME. When I was asked is THAT ki aikido I answered immediately and honestly NO that was an ego maniac corrupting an art by lying to himself, his students and the public. I also refused on another occasion to even talk to a "shihan" who claimed to be studying the true aikido because his master still studied with O Sensei despite O Sensei being dead for decades he claimed that the ghost of O Sensei visited him and taught him what O Sensei is studying now.I stated that I could not believe that and caused embarrasment in the company brcause the "shihan " was Japanese! My point is we do not have to look far to find utter rubbish being passed off as aikido. Can we change it by confronting the phonies I think not. But we can enhance aikido by personal example future students should be able to tell the difference. I would ask please that we try to make all of our future posts positive for any possible beginner who may read them. THIS SHOULD START RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW WITH US.We do not have time for anything less. Koyo
Young macker a kyu grade perhaps the least experienced of us all has written that he found something of value in one of the posts took it to his next class and was congratulated by his sensei. POSITIVE aiki mac who strikes me as someone well equiped to kick ass having studied IMHO the BBB as in Bones break em Blood spill it and Breath stop it. has found a deeper meaning to his training and now pursues it with the same if not more commitment.POSITIVE All of the posts by rebel wado I have read I have found myself in complete agreement and learned much from and I do not even know which art he studies. POSITIVE David Humm and aiki wolfie have both written post I found most informative. There is such a wealth of POSITIVE knowledge out there.Let's concentrate on that ,then when the aiki bashers start up we can direct them to this thread. Respectfully Koyo
How can Ki Aikido be an orthordox line if Koichi Tohei altered and even dropped many techniques completely when he split from the Aikikai? Perhaps there are two othordox lines. I must have been confused. I beleive it was "Combat Aikido". You might wish to try a google search Aren't all techniques priciple based? Why would I show you in red text? Unless of course I was posting in a moderator capacity, which is only required when someone breaks the rules and even then I use red text very sparingly. So far as the other discussion goes, I see no need for it to be brought up here.
This is where you have taken my comment waay too literally, there's no such thing as "combat aikido", it's either "aikido" or it isn't and that was (is) my entire point about aikido's process of devolution through individualism; having been mixed/altered or changed through the ideals of other people because they think they know better. And of course I'm not referring to people like Koichi Tohei who, had the founder's permission to teach aikido, as did Tomiki, Saito, Chiba et al. I'm specifically referring to the people (99% of them being of western origin) who deem themselves experts enough to reverse engineer the art, mix it with other things; or indeed remove entire aspects, then put it all back together under the guise of "aikido" [of one form or another] Regards
Hi Dave We (makotokai) shall be presenting the aikido demo at the IKET this saturday there shall be many Japanese kendo shihan there and shihans in Jo do. karate. judo. iaido and kyudo During the tasters there is great respect shown to each other. In fact my neck gets sore with all the bowing and greetings. We are all becoming good friends and I look forward to it. The taster where the zen archers attempt to calm down the boys after they have had an adrenilen rush from the aikido demo is often quite amusing.(in a nice way) as is the kendo when they are placed in armour and set loose upon the stoic kendoka who suddenly have to defend their ankles and every undesignated targets. As Gerry says the makotokai have great spirit but their"kendo" resembles lobsters mating amid helicopters crashing. It is always a great and deeply respectful time.We must strive for the same respect in the aikido community regardless of styles. I hope you agree. Respectfully Koyo
Indeed I do mate and my apologies to all for my controversial (although genuinely held) opinion. Regards
To Rebel Wado Your remark "when someone states there is no xxx in yyyy" caused you to question it and draw your own conclusions was exactly why I posted it in such a manner. Those conclusions were of great interest to me. I think that many of the principles of empty hand are identical to swordsmanship except of course for the difference in maai. So I ask for your thoughts on sword principles and their relationship to tai jutsu. Respectfully Koyo edit hey mac macker et al some input please.
Wolfie - with all respect, Aikimac had already given the Moderator's view in a calm manner and moved the discussion on. Screaming in red ink several posts afterwards was unnecessary. Posting in a dogmatic or pedantic manner without supporting a 'fact' with some source or evidence gives rise to unnecessary combative discussion. We've all done it and all been rapped for it by other members, so we know. We sorted this one before your intervention. You say you only use red when someone breaks therules, and then sparingly - why the huge splurge in this thread, then? The red prettied up the thread, though
Fair enough dave, but you might want to tell the people running the Philippine Combat Aikido Federation that they don't exist Given that someone rapped someone else over the textual knuckles for not using "IMHO", I felt I should make it clear that no such rule exits and it is not a requirment when posting your opinion. I used red because if a members feels insulted enough to call for MOD intervention in the middle of a thread they should probably be reporting the post as stated in rule 4.3.3. Which would imply some sort of breach of the rules. I'm glad my red font brightened the thread for you. If there's anything else i can do please don't hesitate to let me know. There's no tea or coffee after 3:15pm BST.
Well, whether I understand the correct martial aspect and origin is questionable but let's put that tangential point aside. I'm familiar with the idea of a spectrum of violence like what you posted here. Query, for clarification, is an aikidoka better equipped than a boxer to pick and choose where to stop on the spectrum? My answer is yes. I have nothing against boxing or any other martial art, as I think my MAP bio expresses clearly enough. I do see a huge, material difference in the way aikido is trained as compared to some other arts. I see more options for compassion in aikido than in some of the other arts. You: "I firmly believe for aikido to make physical & philosophical sense a student must be able to do both." I agree to a point. I agree that the aikido student should be exposed to the full spectrum of alternatives, as part of his education in human body movement. I agree that the advanced aikido student should be able to execute alternatives across the entire spectrum (violent and gentle and everything in between), so as to demonstrate his understanding of body movement. I would not agree that the violent alternatives should be a part of the official curriculum, for to do that makes aikido into JJ or kempo or something. Aikido is different because the set of standard techniques are different. The aikido kaiten-nage is not the same as the JJ, silat, escrima, or kempo kaiten-nage. They share a common underlying principle, but, so what. Agreed -- especially the latter clause. It seems to me that when pressed, you drift toward the waza side at the expense of the ideology, whereas I drift toward ideology. Do you also get that impression? Edit: In fairness to Dave, I don't remember ever hearing of "combat aikido" before, and I assumed that he had invented the phrase for illustrative purposes.
Listen, I'd already dropped this line when I apologised for the inclusion of the thread drift from me, I guess you'd like to go another round with me on this issue ? Grow up mate.
And I would completely agree with you. We're in mutual agreement This is where I'm a bit lost as to what you mean "violent alternatives". Technical application of waza is essentially the same whether it be violent in nature or compassionate, is it not the intention of the aikidoka in application which changes, not the technique? Indeed, I think it is fair to say that I'm not entirely comfortable with following an ideology formulated by a person I've never met and from an age before I was born. I agree totally with the concept ["ideological belief" if you wish] of resolving conflict without conflict but, I will always aire toward (oyo) waza because it is the application of workable technique which negates physical aggression. If I have the opportunity to negotiate my way from conflict I will always attempt to do so however, philosophical ideology must be associated with a martial study. IMO too many people practice philosophical ideology and not enough martial study. Mac, I've already given my reasons for using the term "Combat" but I'll give expand on that: Aikido The art has shifted from its combative origins, being largely Daito Ryu aikijujutsu. Now to prefix the term Aikido with the word "Combat" is nothing more than a contradiction in terms. IMO this illustrates one or both of the following points. 1. The person calling what they do Combat Aikido is attempting to market their art as something different to run-of-the-mill aikido, if that is the case then it is no longer aikido - Hence "devolution" 2. The person calling their art "Combat Aikido" has little or no comprehension/appreciation of the Japanese language, customs and historical aspects of budo in relation to aikido, Ueshiba or, the terms Jutsu, or do, and the reason why arts are designated with those terms. I did not pick and use the term Combat Aikido intentionally to dig at a particular group, I could have just as easily used Real Aikido or Goshin Aikido I'm not debating whether clubs, schools or organisations actually use those names (I know they do) but, I still stand by my opinions in relation to the devolution of the art called “Aikido”. There really isn’t a need to call it anything else unless of course - it isn’t actually aikido as taught by any of the style respective hombu, if that's the case I feel it should be called something else without the word aikido. It's only like me renaming Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido to "combat iaido" because I wish to teach it with a different emphasis or because I've altered the techniques etc, if that was the case then I should be teaching Kenjutsu or iaijutsu and not a form of iaido Who am I to be changing a long standing koryu tradition. How friggin' arrogant is that ? I see and use the same model for aikido. And just as an illustrative point, here's a link to someone who claims to be a 5th dan in Iai - For those who don't know anything about what you're about to see, of course you won't know why I'm posting it (and that in its self is one of the issues of devolution of arts - the general public who go and learn this crap, don't know what they're actually learning) For those who do - Bill, Phil, Steve and any visitor from JSA - Try not to laugh too much. L-I-N-K Regards
I don't see that in every situation. Can a shomenate blow to the chin be done in a way that doesn't injure but yet is effective? As a push, yes, but as a punch? I'm not convinced that it can. Perhaps push = punch. But perhaps not. On the other extreme, sure, ikkyo can be done very gently or very violently. That one I believe. I've never met him either, and I've never been to Japan, but I still like it. That's no excuse, dude! If I hadn't dabbled in other stuff first I would not have appreciated aikido, so I can appreciate what you're saying here. But, I would expect that there comes a point in every person's life when he "grows up" in a manner of speaking and gives more emphasis to the ideology over the martial application, if only because his body can't take the physical stress of practice anymore. That's why I thought you made it up.
Punching/striking, like any martial skill requires training to make it viable, yes a punch or strike to the chin [your example] can be used to ultimately render the person unconscious and in doing so may well fracture the jaw but, isn't a fractured jaw better than another more serious injury because of an escalation in aggressive situation - possibly involving weapons? I think so. Equally, *atemi* [using the generic term] can be used as a distractionary tactic however; for this to work, you have to be pretty damned sure it will work because if it doesn't have the desired effect, one's following movement may well expose openings to the otherwise compus mentus aggressor. Regards
