Dave - isn't the sankajo (sankyo) version different in that Tori has uke's right hand held in sankajo whilst cutting into the elbow with his left hand? We katakatame as a joint breaker/dislocator, which was followed by a pin, wrapping the arm down until the back of uke's wrist was on his back. This also allowed us to move a knee on the neck etc. if we wanted to make it more nasty. Certainly katakatame is not a pin in itself, but quite capable of finishing an attack. Rebel: Thanks for clarifying, although I would say we have plenty of atemi used whilst taking uke to the ground and when on the ground. For example, we use a temple strike with the right fist (first knuckle) once uke is bending with yonkajo applied by our left hand to their right, to help them on their way! (Yokomen-uchi Sankajo Osae Ni - see Shioda's Total Aikido p.113 ) It's a much more civilised and tasteful 'ground and pound' I can also think of strikes to floating ribs etc etc. Neither is atemi limited to the fist -we have the palm, elbow, shoulder, foot, knee etc. all available to us as legitimate Aikido atemi. Shioda even used his back to strike when Uke was off balance! We use atemi in suwari waza as much as in standing techniques. Many of our techniques also end with atemi to the head as a 'finisher' (we also emulate a tanto strike, such as in Katate-mochi Shiho-nage, or a throat cut as a finisher in other scenarios). Yoshinkan founder Gozo Shioda recommended conditioning the joints and wrists through practice, not to mention fists, so that atemi may be delivered 'effectively' and met effectively ( Dynamic Aikido p.89 - "there is no comparison in the effect of blows delivered by 'tempered' and 'untempered' hands".)
I too do not 'fit' directly in to the eastern way of thinking, that is because I'm of western origin, whilst I study Japanese arts and absorb some of its culture and customs as a result, I am not and never will try to be overly Japanese. Although; I have seen people try so hard to fit that profile. As far as atemi is concerned; don't overly worry about it. Aikido's use of atemi is for distractionary purposes and not intended as 'knock out' blows thus, if you spend the time learning those underlying principles of the system IE taisabaki, awase and kuzushi (blending and posture taking through management of body movement) you will find that the openings for atemi become very apparent and, you'll see the amount of force/impact required for the actual blow will be fairly minimal because of the state of your opponent's physical posture. Neither am I and one or two other self-confessed 'un-spiritual' members here. Whether you claim to be or not is immaterial, everyone has some significance in this world, never put yourself down in this respect. BTW The founder of Aikido wasn’t Irish o sensei is perfectly acceptable even in lower case because the term isn’t English requiring capitalisation
Hi Guys the "immobilisation as shown in Rebels photo was (as I ws taught) used to loosen up and strengthen uke's shoulder joint or as it was put "take the cement out" it was then invariabley taken down into the immobilisation as I described to rebel or taken to the mat the elbow pinned like ikkyo and the wrist "impulsed" with nikkyo. At that point we would immobilise with the left hand while striking shuto to the base of the neck. So in my opinion the technique shown is not the complete immobilisation. Anyway that is how I was taught and continue to apply it. regards Koyo Edit rebel that form of immobilisastion is common and is indeed an acceptable aikido technique. (in the makotokai any way!!)
Indeed, it is still technically katakatame but the rotational addition of the wrist ala sankyo provides extra control and therefore is rightly referred to as "sankyo" when speaking of the immobilisation at the end of the application. ? How do you "pin" either a broken or dislocated joint/bone ? .. That's specifically what it's intended for.. Immobilisation.
Hey Dave, BTW The founder of Aikido wasn’t Irish o sensei is perfectly acceptable even in lower case because the term isn’t English requiring capitalisation Ok, i was just trying to be respectful, thanks for the correction. Whether you claim to be or not is immaterial, everyone has some significance in this world, never put yourself down in this respect. I did not say this as a put down of myself, it was more along the lines of not thinking of myself as a big fish in a small pond. I suppose remarkable would have been a better choice in words.
Understood mate I was being a bit pedantic with what I said about how one writes "o sensei" Ignore me. (lol)
Excellent, I can see the similarities even more in the details, as those that cross-train in BJJ and Aikido would make the same connections. Question, just to prove this point, from the picture above, how would one apply a break or submission (not getting into philosophical debate here, what detailed mechanics are involved, nothing more)? If it follows the same principles as in BJJ there are two methods: 1) continue to rotate the arm behind the back of uke (one on the ground) towards the back of his head. 2) or "dive" forward bringing uke's hand over his shoulder. Note: I find the second method more to my liking. Anyway, is this the same in Aikido?
In general principle yep, that be the one. The second one you mention is more akin to another immobilisation; a seated version of yonkyo where one's knee is used as the leverage although in fairness the actual shape and position of one's opponent's arm is pretty much the same. Severe damage can then be achieve by holding that immobilised position and performing a simple forward ukemi ! Here for an image Also see here
You are preaching to the choir here kiaki. The point of my discussion about atemi on the ground is that it is done differently than atemi when standing. I am more specifically referring to atemi AFTER uke is already on the ground. Atemi on the ground is done without as much penetration and power and is generally combined with an immobilization (so uke cannot defend and evade the attacks). Atemi is not done as in the UFC/MMA with the ground and pound UNLESS you have hand and knee protection (such as the 4 oz gloves wore) because when you hit things on the ground, it is unforgiving and they do not move with the strike. Therefore, lighter strikes and kicks and open hand techniques are used more when on the ground than they are when standing up where the strikes can be more full power. By the way kiaki, I am glad to read you enthusiasm towards atemi :love: I will tell you something about why you finish with atemi to the head (looks around, shhhh... don't tell anyone else... don't let koyo know I told you this... I want plausible deniability...). You atemi (usually a kick) to the head because it can cause loss of consciousness and short-term memory. If there are no witnesses around it will be your word against his -- but the person that you downed in self-defense will be unable to remember what happened. Obviously you tell them that they fell down and hit their head... cough. :yeleyes:
Please tell me you were kidding with that Life and death is one thing but kicking someone in the head when they are already down (for the reasons you gave) amounts to aggravated/grievous assault at best or attempted murder at worst and, no longer fits within the remit of self defence which requires the use of minimum force (all of which is relative I grant you, but not under the circumstances you present)... You were kidding .. right ?
Dave - same move visually, but ours was used to move into an immobilisation - we 'pinned' by wrapping the arm down onto uke's back. We could then stand up or make the pin stronger by also kneeling on their neck or bent elbow, for example. Of course you can pin a broken joint - don't understand that bit of your post, sorry. In the originally shown version, we can damage the shoulder and pin the arm at the elbow etc, so the same joint is not involved. If in sankyo the knee can be moved to press down and pin the damaged shoulder - why is this a problem? Applied hard by rotating, the shoulder gets damaged without any need to do a forward roll and sacrifice posture. Atemi in Yoshinkan is most certainly not only for distraction - if I respond to uke's attack with a blow to his face, for example, he must place a hand there to block or he will get hit. How much of this and how hard we strike is a matter of experience in judging uke's ability. If a 3rd Kyu forgets to block I may give him a playful tap as a reminder. If in jiyuwaza as uke for a 3rd Dan I make a full on attack and if he fails to block, he gets hit. Same with a tanto at that level, but that's another discussion. Shioda said about atemi with the fist: ''all of the body's energy will be transferred into your fist". By this he meant that driven through with the hips, moving forwards with the leading knee and with good timing, explosive power should be created. (Total Aikido p.24 on Atemi). He maintained, as you suggest, that no great strength is required, just great power through good timing, distance and balance. We've discussed atemi before, Dave, and I go with what I've been taught - it is a committed blow, not for distraction. Uke's atemi attacks, Tori's defensive atemi, and strikes to end attacks such as shomen ate are all delivered with intent to reach their target. Earlier in the thread I quoted Shioda, who taught my Sensei, who passed that on to me. It is also corroborated in Shioda's books, so I guess we'll just have to carry our different beliefs about this. At least we all agree that it has a place in our MA!
I'm not saying that one should do this... I am serious in knowing the reasons for why things are done the way they are. It was already mentioned (not by me) about finishing with an atemi to the head. I was giving a reason for this so that one can determine in their own philosophy and beliefs whether they actually want to do something like that. I am not happy about posting this type of information, it can be used in the wrong ways (abused). On the other hand, kicking downed people in the head is happening has happened and continues to happen... if one knows the tactics used, one can better defend against them also. You need to know how to protect yourself from kicks when on the ground so in PRIVATE we work these things. I am sorry, I should think more about the sensitive nature of some statements, I was joking around hoping that I could get by unnoticed. One point Dave, and I appreciate your putting real perspective on things... not in Aikido but in Kajukenbo we train kicking downed opponents as well as strikes of all nature along with submissions and breaks. In such a matter, we learn to adjust techniques because we have more experience of what it is like and the knowledge of those before to help guide us. WHEN STRIKING A DOWNED ATTACKER THAT IS ALREADY IMMOBILIZED IN SOME WAY, the striking is done only to allow for a submission or for your escape. it is not done with the intent to cause deadly or serious harm. Particular vital or vulnerable areas are targeted with lesser powered strikes to temporarily stun the attacker allowing for better positioning or disengagement. This is important because an untrained or semi-trained ground attacker will often attempt full power strikes and kicks... for instance a kicking the head like a football... TO DO SO FULL POWER IS A KILLING BLOW and this is not something someone on the right side of the law should train to do. We do not train to do that, but we do train to defend against it, and we do train lighter more controlled strikes to the head and other areas. This includes a passing kick to the head as necessary to disengage. Not to be used on an attacker that has given up and offers no resistance but as one that is likely to get right back up and try to kill you. Again, I understand this is an area with the potential for lots of misunderstanding. Frankly Dave, we have not trained together and unless we have trained together for years, there are just going to always be areas that we will not be able to fully be able to communicate with each other. Thanks again.
Rebel - don't think you need to worry about posting info about kicking people in the head. Even the dimmest thug round here knows that one; what they don't know is how much damage it can cause 'cos on the telly you get a good kicking and are back the next day as the vengeful hero! IMHO one effect of studying MA is that you become very wary of any street fight simply becuase you know how much damage you could cause, let alone the police view. Still abit confused about your thoughts that atemi when someone is on the ground differs from when they are standing, in an Aikido context. I tend to think that much of the tough stuff in suwari waza was designed to make us do the same techniques better when standing up. As posted above, Shioda wanted atemi power to come from the whole body, so practice of atemi on the ground where hip and leg mobility is contrained, would logically mean we are going to develop even more power when standing. Or have I missed your point again?
Thanks for that kiaiki. I agree with what you say, I also find out things like that a person can be hurt very badly but not immediately seem too badly hurt (they may not react to it as expected). With adrenaline even pain is lessened so it will seem as though a person can take a lot more punishment, but later on they could die from internal injuries. One of the things developed through martial arts training, IMHO, is a knowledge of the use of good body mechanics to get the desired effects as the first priority, then one can add to that the use of distraction or getting a reaction out of an opponent in application, or the use of psychology and tactics to trick someone into an application. All valid methods, but one is the foundation where as the others are add ons. What I mean is the power and penetration of the strike. When standing, one CAN strike to penetrate through an opponent. When on the ground, one rarely should strike to penetrate through the opponent, but rather strike with less penetration. This is for the reasons I already mentioned that when standing your opponent's body can move in the direction of your strike... on the other hand, the ground is solid and striking someone on the ground means they will not move as much with your strike. Think of it this way. Striking someone on the ground is like striking someone standing but with their back against a wall. If you punched, kicked, kneed, elbowed, head butted, shoulder rammed, etc., etc. uke who was against a brick wall and you MISSED, what would happen? This is what striking a downed opponent is like.
Kiaiki and Rebel I should not be telling you this YOU ARE DANGEROUS ENOUGH but there is a truly devastating way of striking on the ground. Lets say your opponent is on the ground with his head turned away protecting his face. You slap the back of your hand to his temple opening the fingers so that your palm faces up this need not be done hard. Then you strike your open palm with a tesu te (hammer fist) HARD . This feels like a depth charge going off in your head I have had it demonstrated VERY lightly. Even slapping your hand over his eyes then striking the back of your own hand again with a "hammer" fist can be devastating. These can be applied with the opponent pressed against a wall. Since both hands are used you must have him on the defencive first. Edit kiaiki do not read this post aaaarg!!! too late. Sorry kiaki I ment rebel was not read this post. I mean oh!sh.. You could try it on your gilfriend,wife or mother all you need do is pretend you are going to kiss their cheek when they turn their head THEN YOU STRIKE!!!! Compassionately Koyo :yeleyes:
Read what Totally unrelated to anything koyo posted :love: but there is a saying in ground fighting referring to pressure (pounds per square inch). You don't want to drop a cinder block on top of the opponent, you want to place an icepick on the opponent and drop the cinder block on the ice pick.
If you had been allowed to read the post you would have noticed that was similar to what I said only in a more compassionate manner. Koyo Edit Do Not read this Rebel If you do not have room to get power into an elbow strike on the ground place your elbow at the throat or karotid artery and stike your own fist. This is ment for kiaiki but I could not be bothered to open another post.
Really, wow that is some coincidence P.S. Okay, I admit that I "looked" at your post but the question is did I "read" it.
Do'nt start getting all zen on me after dragging me into a discussion on dirty fighting.You and kiaki have knocked back my enlightenment by years!!! Peace and love and a depth charge Koyo
